Instead of claiming in an elaborate way that I don't understand maybe you should try to answer simple questions.
WTF do you think I've been doing this whole time? I'm trying to use non-jargon and explain it in basic terms, but some ideas can't be reduced that way.
And JFL @ "simple questions." This whole topic is anything but simple.
For the record, I don't lose any sleep, friends, influence, or money, if you fail to understand any of this. I only lose a bit of my time (and occasionally patience and temper KEK). I'm explaining this for OP's sake, and you happen to be here for the bumpy ride. These replies are a courtesy to you. I could simply choose to respond with "
" and just get on with my day, but I happen to like this subject and have done deep analysis on this for my own sake and curiosity in the past (circa 2008-2009).
If the outcomes of all events are predestined then how come any perception of free will be anything but #fake&gay ? Its really not that complicated of a problem. I mean I know for a fact that both these ideas are inherently contradictory. And I can easily show this by arguing that if all future events are predetermined then free will cannot exist since a will is not exercised at all. It was all predecided by forces outside the individual anyway. This is a perfectly valid solid argument. I'm willing to listen to counters but I'll not have such an obvious thing be trivialized by gaffs.
I'll get to this further below.
This is a simple 2+2 /=/ 5 cuz 2 +2 /=/ 5
No, this entire problem isn't some simple model with initial conditions and functions you can input and then deterministically extrapolate some future point.
Infact I can logically posit that free will actually doesn't exist because any exercise of free will is inherently random.
This shows at least one of two things: 1) Your lack of knowledge on the material regarding this topic. 2) Your lack of understanding of the material.
Assuming that free will is inherently random is a very pedestrian (but understandably predictable) flaw in reasoning about the metaphysics of free will. Free will does not imply indeterminism, as it's logically possible to have free will within a deterministic system. An extremely simple example is any solved adversarial game where the first move can determine the end-game strategy and tell you from move 1 whether that player will win or lose. Every move is free has its own decision tree (and you're free to make a losing or sub-optimal play) that branches off and has some finite end point from a finite set of possible outcomes. Applied to humans and the concept of free will, it merely means that your decision-trees are far more complex, but still determinable to... wait for it.... an omniscient being with perfect knowledge.
There is nothing in this conceptual framework that necessitates a stochastic mechanism for free will to function, nor does it entail that deterministic systems invalidate free will as a concept. In English: this doesn't mean free will has to be random. Even if you're a hard determinist, which you very well sound like, you must understand that there are valid and sound alternative positions. There's a very common philosophy in this discussion called compatibilism, and that is the position that free will is compatible with determinism (that's even assuming the universe is deterministic). I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with that and other positions on the free will debate, if you aren't already (ngl, buddy boyo, I get the sense you don't know the material).
But that's outside the scope of this topic and frankly too high iq for the forum.
No, please, go on. A part of me is concerned that you'll misconstrue something major and I'll feel obligated to help you better understand, while another part of me is schadenfreuding to see how badly you'll bungle it up. Indeterminancy and free will is not a discussion that necessarily needs to be had for this topic, but I'll happily go there, if you want.
This is just straight up bullshit. Like all things related to god for that matter. Again its actually very simple. If I roll a dice and it is predetermined by laws of mechanics that its gonna give a 6 . Then all of my knowledge regarding the other 5 permutations and options is meaningless. My very belief that it could've been a 3 instead is not just WRONG BUT BASED ON A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE INSTEAD OF PRESENCE OF KNOWLEDGE.
Its even worse than being "just" wrong. Its pure ignorance that you are ascribing to an infinite all knowing God.
That perspective that I'm talking about is extremely pertinent.
From the point of view of an omniscient being with perfect knowledge (call it OB), any slight deviation or perturbation will show OB the end result of this change. This also true in any probabilistic system where perfect knowledge is available, since it won't matter if the probability space has an infinite number of random variables, because each of those variables have corresponding results, which then have their own results and continuing branching points and end results of their own, ad infinitum. For every A_1,...,A_n, there a B_1,...,B_n, and for every B_1,...,B_n, there's a C_1,...,C_n, where C is a subset of B and B is a subset of A, and each subset is dependent upon its parent superset. And there are an infinite number of subsets (but this is doesn't really matter). In practice "n" for every subset - i.e., the number of your choices in any decision set - is not infinite, because you will one day die and not be able to exercise your free will i.e., continue making decisions.
For any OB, at every discrete slice in time, every instance of change, every chaotic perturbation, every result of a random variable, the changes in the end result are already known (because perfect knowledge). To you and I, this appears as instantaneously knowing. For any local, free, conscious agent - i.e., you, I, and every other human who makes choices - your knowledge is extremely limited to your own neighborhood in space, time, and inference of outcome. Sitting in my chair, I can reasonably predict that in the next 20 minutes, no matter how I exercise my free will and make any decision, I will not end up on the moon (since this is physically impossible, hence P(Moon) = 0). But I can't, in any way shape or form, reasonably predict what will happen in 20 years, nor will I be able to reasonably estimate and extrapolate the 20 year result of any single choice in any branching decision tree.
For OB, all of this is utterly trivial. If I decide to turn left or turn right at the intersection, for example, it doesn't matter to OB what this means for me decades down the line, because my "fate is sealed" down each road from OB's perspective relative to mine. Turning left could mean I run into a serial killer, while turning right could mean I make a stop at a gas station and buy a winning lottery ticket. Both of these eventualities are known to OB, hence the knowledge of your "destiny" is "predetermined." From your perspective (and mine and every other finite mortal with imperfect knowledge), OB's omniscient statement, "your fate is written," is functionally equivalent to, "I know what will happen to you at the end, regardless of any possible permutations of choices you make using your free will at any given instance of your finite life." Which statement do you think is more palatable to the senses and cognitive faculties of your average goat herder and farmer in some year B.C.E.?
This is why, some people (yourself included) like to argue, that free will is illusory. The part that's not clicking for you and many others (but is obvious to me now after... so much pain and struggle) is this precise distinction from both perspectives (finite and infinite knowledge). From your POV it naturally seems unequivocally contradictory to say, "God has predestined your fate, but you do have free will." From God's perspective (or any OB, if you hate the term "God"), they're simply saying they know what will happen to you, not that they themselves will make it happen. Free will, thus, is preserved and not violated. You are choosing your fate, but that fate (as a result of the choices you make) is already known to OB ahead of time. Remember that omniscience with perfect knowledge means that the knowledge of what you will do tomorrow is exactly the same to them as the knowledge of what you did yesterday.
This is entirely contradictory to the concept of predestination. Maybe you'd have to redefine the term to fit your explaination. Because when us normal people talk about predestination or predetermination we mean that the result of future events are fixed and ther are no alternative options. The moment you allow multiple possible outcomes to exist you throw predestination out the window. And if you do that then your God is simply not omniscient since it is a fact that of all the options only one of them is appears and God doesn't know which one would that be.
I've already alluded (immediately above) to the fact that any definition of predestination is indifferent to the argument that an omniscient being with perfect knowledge does not violate the free will of a free acting agent with imperfect knowledge.
You are trying to argue that God knows all the outcomes including the correct one. But you fail to realise that the very existence of a correct option throws the other options out the window since they were illusions that only existed within God's head. Which again leads to the original conclusion that free will doesn't exist in a predestined world
There is no "correct choice." There is only "your choice." A "correct" choice would imply that it's a choice that God would make for you to keep his predestined path for you "correct." But as I already explained, that's unnecessary, because, as far you're concerned (you, the human with free will), there is no functional difference between a predestined fate that you're told about and a revelation that the result of all of your choices are known to God. God's "destiny" for you is not contingent upon some series of "correct" decisions that you
must make to make in order for God's divine decree for you to hold true, rather that whatever your fate happens to be is the result of your choices both past, present, and future.
God also won't do that from principle, since it violates free will and turns you into an automaton. At that point, telling you that your fate is predestined would be irrelevant (because you'd instinctively know KEK). Those other options are all still
YOUR options to make. By choosing one out of however many of the options available to you, you yourself throw away the others, but they were still your options to choose from. It's like buying a bag of assorted sweets, picking one out, and then tossing the rest of the bag in the bin.
For God (or any OB), a preset destiny is the same as any that is undecided and in flux. No matter how hard you try, you won't be able to wrap your head around this mindfuck. The best you can do is understand why it works, but not how it works.
