This post is targeted to normie lurkers of the website, as well to stimulate debate among the userbase about these thoughts.
I am what some would call "an oldcel", I have far more experience than most of the userbase, I am nearing my 30s and contrarily to most of the userbase my views are more neutral, and aren't ones of a 15yo edgelord, but I understand why most users behave like edgelords. More on that later.
Let's picture the following situation: a male loner, considered to be physically unattractive, either in his teens or adulthood is experiencing depression over his condition. He has few to no friends (of either sex), does not feel desirable as either as a friend or as a sexual partner, people assume his entire personality by his physiognomy (assuming his social circles in virtue of how his physical appearance stands out among the average) which can be a HUGE limiting factor, never gets approached by people in real life to start a nice conversation for that fact (people assume by, again, his physiognomy that this would be a waste of time ) except when being asked for help/favors, or when taking proactivity in approaching people himself, people avoid instigating further conversation with him because they feel adding that man to their social circle would not represent a benefit for themselves.
This man thinks: "oh well, I need to get help". And then goes to a therapist that everything bad happening around him is his fault and his fault only, that he needs to "work on himself", that not socializing with shallow people is a "good riddance", that he needs to repress his sexual desires or simply hire escorts (something that is straight illegal or grey area in most countries), that he needs to find men with similar interests to socialize with and "get some experience etc".
Said man takes that advice, and starts working out, frequenting places where he can hang out with similar-minded peers etc. He also lands on a good and stable job that pays well.
The problems are:
1 - His loneliness was not fulfilled. His desires to find a partner to share intimate times with, satisfy his (biological) sexual urges, dreams of building a family and becoming a welcome member in society, and to feel better and successful about himself, are all being denied to him. He still feels empty and incomplete both as a man and a human being. Prostitution does not cut it. Most sex workers have terrible work ethics, as well as providing a terrible "service" to clients they don't feel any connection to.
2 - Whenever the topic of women, sex and family is brought up by his male peers, he is never invited to join such topics, as people assume by his physical appearance/phenotype he is not considered attractive by women, so he is either not in a relationship or is not very experienced in the subject, so he gets excluded from that conversation.
3 - Women still do not consider him to be physically attractive, do not accept his flirtatious approaches (even well intended ones) nor they approach him. Even though he could be in a good shape, in a slender condition, maybe even with an athletic physique and toned body, sometimes with extreme goals (roids), this is not enough to provide him an opening with the women he feels sexually attracted to. Getting fit does not magically improve his facial aesthetics nor height, and his "average status" financially-wise is not enough to attract the average women he is into. Following PUA scams obviously did not seem to work either, as he could not even get an opening to say cheesy pick up lines, as women were immediately averse to him and any possible advances he made towards them. They rejected him on the spot.
So this man thinks: "What the fuck is going on?". "Why am I not being properly rewarded for my efforts?". "What else should I do? Should I pay dozens of thousands of dollars in surgeries and roids? Should I give all my blood and sweat and get rich just to be able to get an opening and access women I feel attracted to? Should I desperately attempt to to chase women severely below my league in every single regard that did not do in life 1/1000 of all my efforts, while men that did not do any I did at all have access to them effortlessly just because they were born with a better flesh arrangement?"
Naturally, a man in this condition feels depressed, angry and suicidal despite all of the "developments". He gets bitter. He is told to lower his standards, by his therapist, or to completely forget women. They want him to forget it all about his dreams. They shatter his expectations, they suddenly reveal that meritocracy is a myth, and it becomes apparent that success is decided as a birthright. He is then get told that he needs to "work more" (?), to death, perhaps. But at this point, he loses all of his will to attempt anything further, since not a single of the expected reward was given to him. He already worked hard, and expected any reward. He got none instead, and is still get told that he needs to work "harder". How is he supposed to keep going since there is no incentive in sight or anything that gives a clue that he might be heading for success, finding sex, love and a fulfilling life?
Now, let's go back to the "bitterness" part of the story I told above. Let's say a man like that reaches a breaking point in life. He either wants to end it all, or feel society wronged him and becomes angry and hateful.
Remember when I mentioned incel edgelords? The guys the say, in this very board, "go ER", "it's ovER","look for anothER solution", in allusion to Elliot Rodger and massacres, or "kill all normies... In Minecraft/GTA/whatever". Once again, more on that later.
The lonely man wants to feel noted, for once, in his life. Or he feels empathy for people who might be in similar situation as him. Or he wants to feel powerful, for once, in his life. So he decided to take one of the two extreme actions:
1 - He writes a suicide letter in social media, then jumps off a building in an area crowded by people, where his smashed body will obviously cause quite an impression. Some coworkers/classmates or whatever will take notice of him, think the whole thing is sad and all, they would be virtue signalling by saying "I could have helped him if he asked" (spoiler: they would not), maybe a few closest family members will mourn him. Maybe his death would be a small footnote in his city's newspaper footnote. People would talk about it AT MOST for a week. And that's it. Another one bites the dust, or in this case, the ground in high speed (lol).
Or:
2 - He writes a 200-page manifesto on how society wronged him, on how life is unfair, how people must pay for their evil, and blah blah blah, brings lethal fire-weapons to an specific crowded site and sprays bullets in people in brutal fashion attempting to get a high body count, and in the end, either commits suicide or is caught and arrested by the local police. He becomes the spotlight in local news, gets more attention than he ever got in his whole life for such an heinous crime, gets his inceldom condition and life background discussed all over the news, the families of the victims grieve, accuse certain institutions of failing to stop the shooter the monstrous man he became, gets people in general to talk about male loners/incels and "how to stop them/prevent further things for happening"
Which one of the two do you think attracts the most media attention towards the "lonely male" discussion? Which one do you think the large media conglomerates that love violence and sensationalist spectacles would like to cover best for views?
I strongly have the impression that many edgelord incels do not have bloodshed as the goal: they crave for attention, fantasies of power, or expectations that society feels forced to discuss the issues they face. The fantasies for revenge are merely tools to achieve a goal.
My conclusion is that, by not discussing the matter of male loneliness and how to help men upfront without generic advices, by not acknowledging that female hypergamy is real, the large media, social justice NGOs, and "three-letter agencies", are actually enabling edgy mindset and power fantasies. And internet censorship might further radicalize those individuals as they would have nowhere else to vent their frustrations or community hugboxes that could work as a coping mechanism.
Here are my proposals:
1 - STOP using female depression as a metric for male depression:
This Twitter/X thread by Adam Lane Smith sums it up perfectly:
View: https://twitter.com/TheBrometheus/status/1676925337194704897
Especially the points:
- Male depression and female depression often present very differently, and they also tend to heal differently. But most therapy modalities are really only geared to help women recover. Many can actually make men more depressed.
- Men need to feel powerful to be mentally and emotionally healthy. Powerless men feel broken and afraid. Emasculated. To help a man feel better, you must help him feel powerful.
- The male suicide rate is not about wanting to die. It’s about feeling powerless, hopeless, and helpless for way too long. To fix it, we have to make life more appealing than the peace of death. We have to give men power over their lives.
- Male depression is nearly always a result of learned helplessness, but health providers treat it like female depression and try to make men feel loved instead of powerful.
-Most depressed men probably don't need medication. Even then ones who do need it need more than just medication. Depressed men need purpose, a mission, and the power to accomplish that mission.Give a man those 3 things and he can crawl over broken glass with a smile.
- Most women are disgusted when they finally learn how the male sex drive works. Then they test to see if it's true, and when it is, they start to like the new power they hold.
- Most men today can't imagine a space just for men. Every space that was originally for men has been taken over for women seeking attention or somewhere to hang out. And when women invade more spaces that men inhabit, modern men are programmed to withdraw without complaining.
- More women hold college degrees than men and are unlikely to date down in earning potential. This is leading to immense frustration in women who climb the social ladder and then compete for a dwindling population of men. Hardly anyone one is talking about this dating disaster.
2 - People and the large media should start acknowledging average women have a large (and "unfair") advantage over average men in dating:
I mean, it's everywhere now. There is overwhelming data that women nowadays tend to proactively exclusively chase men noticeably above their league in terms of perceived sexual value in physical appearance and in status. There is also hard data that average women have far more sex parners in a short lifespan than most men will have will have during their entire lives. You can find several references online, including academic ones, concluding these facts. Surveys, data from dating services, makes the whole argument and ordeal undeniable.
You can find some references on the incel wiki:
incels.wiki
incels.wiki
To get thinks worse, most of the social media is focused on pictures/videos these days, so there is a great emphasis in physical appearance, and women are the number 1 consumers of such media, so they now give a great deal of importance in looks, and on top of that they have a wide array of options since the popularization of the internet as a medium earlier this century because they have access to a never possible before amount of potential male partners, so they shallowly pick the best looking ones of the bunch as they have many options. Women back in the day used to find partners in their local parties or within their school or work environment, now they can have connections with men all around the world.
People need to stop thinking the female dating experience is similar to the male dating experience. It is not. Also, many women use their personal experience with male good looking friends as a parameter of male success in dating, but the fact is, these men are the absolute exception, and not the rule. The average man also have to work way harder than a woman to get sex partners, while a woman just need to vent their desires for companionship and they will instantly have candidates available.
3 - There should be a public debate on how to deal with the issue of male loneliness:
I strongly believe that if prostitution was not a taboo or straight illegal topic in most regions aroung the world, most of the concerns about male loneliness in those places would be non-issues. We need to abandon laws based on religious puritanism from centuries ago to provide better professional conditions to both sex workers and clients alike of such services. Men need to be able to offer women money for sex freely if the act itself is of noncoercive nature. This is not exploitative as accepting such offer or not is still a woman's decision, and they will be rewarded for it. In most countries nowadays, if you post an advertisement somewhere "I will pay $100 an hour for any blonde bimbo-type woman to have sex with me" you will be arrested for it, but this is not fair as this is a consesual agreement between two consenting adults. This needs to be reviewed, and many women would love to have that easy money and keep the low profile as they would not want to have prostitution as an official profession. So this would work to the great benefit of women themselves.
Also, people need to look for alternatives instead of simply demonizing lonely men for craving sex and companionship and start working with them instead of against them. Like I said before, simply suggesting therapy won't cut it; what works for women in therapy will not work for men. Most men don't need validation. They need to feel powerful, they need to feel they are in charge of their lives, they need to feel capable. They need to feel their dreams can be achieved, even with some (small, and not severe) concessions. And that includes sex, companionship, and starting a family. Which is getting incredibly difficult by the day for reasons beyond the control and power of men. Incel men are taxpayers too, and currently there is zero elements in most places pandering to them in any level.
Censorship is not the solution. Deplatforming incels, and making incels "shutting the fuck up" about their frustations with women and their feeling of loneliness, then doing absolutely nothing to address this, is not going to stop men from having bad ideas, in fact, it is going to make them further bitter and hateful as like I said before, there is no "pandering" to them and society in no way sees them as victimized or oppressed people. This is an incredibly bad time in history where those issues overlap with female pandering and feminist agenda by the strong far-left propaganda this century, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue if the thing going on was just the hypergamy, but what we have is the feminism plus hypergamy combo.
I personally do not seek to "depower" women. I seek for more freedom for men to fulfill their needs. I hope someday someone will put a thought to this, either men or women in power.
I am what some would call "an oldcel", I have far more experience than most of the userbase, I am nearing my 30s and contrarily to most of the userbase my views are more neutral, and aren't ones of a 15yo edgelord, but I understand why most users behave like edgelords. More on that later.
Let's picture the following situation: a male loner, considered to be physically unattractive, either in his teens or adulthood is experiencing depression over his condition. He has few to no friends (of either sex), does not feel desirable as either as a friend or as a sexual partner, people assume his entire personality by his physiognomy (assuming his social circles in virtue of how his physical appearance stands out among the average) which can be a HUGE limiting factor, never gets approached by people in real life to start a nice conversation for that fact (people assume by, again, his physiognomy that this would be a waste of time ) except when being asked for help/favors, or when taking proactivity in approaching people himself, people avoid instigating further conversation with him because they feel adding that man to their social circle would not represent a benefit for themselves.
This man thinks: "oh well, I need to get help". And then goes to a therapist that everything bad happening around him is his fault and his fault only, that he needs to "work on himself", that not socializing with shallow people is a "good riddance", that he needs to repress his sexual desires or simply hire escorts (something that is straight illegal or grey area in most countries), that he needs to find men with similar interests to socialize with and "get some experience etc".
Said man takes that advice, and starts working out, frequenting places where he can hang out with similar-minded peers etc. He also lands on a good and stable job that pays well.
The problems are:
1 - His loneliness was not fulfilled. His desires to find a partner to share intimate times with, satisfy his (biological) sexual urges, dreams of building a family and becoming a welcome member in society, and to feel better and successful about himself, are all being denied to him. He still feels empty and incomplete both as a man and a human being. Prostitution does not cut it. Most sex workers have terrible work ethics, as well as providing a terrible "service" to clients they don't feel any connection to.
2 - Whenever the topic of women, sex and family is brought up by his male peers, he is never invited to join such topics, as people assume by his physical appearance/phenotype he is not considered attractive by women, so he is either not in a relationship or is not very experienced in the subject, so he gets excluded from that conversation.
3 - Women still do not consider him to be physically attractive, do not accept his flirtatious approaches (even well intended ones) nor they approach him. Even though he could be in a good shape, in a slender condition, maybe even with an athletic physique and toned body, sometimes with extreme goals (roids), this is not enough to provide him an opening with the women he feels sexually attracted to. Getting fit does not magically improve his facial aesthetics nor height, and his "average status" financially-wise is not enough to attract the average women he is into. Following PUA scams obviously did not seem to work either, as he could not even get an opening to say cheesy pick up lines, as women were immediately averse to him and any possible advances he made towards them. They rejected him on the spot.
So this man thinks: "What the fuck is going on?". "Why am I not being properly rewarded for my efforts?". "What else should I do? Should I pay dozens of thousands of dollars in surgeries and roids? Should I give all my blood and sweat and get rich just to be able to get an opening and access women I feel attracted to? Should I desperately attempt to to chase women severely below my league in every single regard that did not do in life 1/1000 of all my efforts, while men that did not do any I did at all have access to them effortlessly just because they were born with a better flesh arrangement?"
Naturally, a man in this condition feels depressed, angry and suicidal despite all of the "developments". He gets bitter. He is told to lower his standards, by his therapist, or to completely forget women. They want him to forget it all about his dreams. They shatter his expectations, they suddenly reveal that meritocracy is a myth, and it becomes apparent that success is decided as a birthright. He is then get told that he needs to "work more" (?), to death, perhaps. But at this point, he loses all of his will to attempt anything further, since not a single of the expected reward was given to him. He already worked hard, and expected any reward. He got none instead, and is still get told that he needs to work "harder". How is he supposed to keep going since there is no incentive in sight or anything that gives a clue that he might be heading for success, finding sex, love and a fulfilling life?
Now, let's go back to the "bitterness" part of the story I told above. Let's say a man like that reaches a breaking point in life. He either wants to end it all, or feel society wronged him and becomes angry and hateful.
Remember when I mentioned incel edgelords? The guys the say, in this very board, "go ER", "it's ovER","look for anothER solution", in allusion to Elliot Rodger and massacres, or "kill all normies... In Minecraft/GTA/whatever". Once again, more on that later.
The lonely man wants to feel noted, for once, in his life. Or he feels empathy for people who might be in similar situation as him. Or he wants to feel powerful, for once, in his life. So he decided to take one of the two extreme actions:
1 - He writes a suicide letter in social media, then jumps off a building in an area crowded by people, where his smashed body will obviously cause quite an impression. Some coworkers/classmates or whatever will take notice of him, think the whole thing is sad and all, they would be virtue signalling by saying "I could have helped him if he asked" (spoiler: they would not), maybe a few closest family members will mourn him. Maybe his death would be a small footnote in his city's newspaper footnote. People would talk about it AT MOST for a week. And that's it. Another one bites the dust, or in this case, the ground in high speed (lol).
Or:
2 - He writes a 200-page manifesto on how society wronged him, on how life is unfair, how people must pay for their evil, and blah blah blah, brings lethal fire-weapons to an specific crowded site and sprays bullets in people in brutal fashion attempting to get a high body count, and in the end, either commits suicide or is caught and arrested by the local police. He becomes the spotlight in local news, gets more attention than he ever got in his whole life for such an heinous crime, gets his inceldom condition and life background discussed all over the news, the families of the victims grieve, accuse certain institutions of failing to stop the shooter the monstrous man he became, gets people in general to talk about male loners/incels and "how to stop them/prevent further things for happening"
Which one of the two do you think attracts the most media attention towards the "lonely male" discussion? Which one do you think the large media conglomerates that love violence and sensationalist spectacles would like to cover best for views?
I strongly have the impression that many edgelord incels do not have bloodshed as the goal: they crave for attention, fantasies of power, or expectations that society feels forced to discuss the issues they face. The fantasies for revenge are merely tools to achieve a goal.
My conclusion is that, by not discussing the matter of male loneliness and how to help men upfront without generic advices, by not acknowledging that female hypergamy is real, the large media, social justice NGOs, and "three-letter agencies", are actually enabling edgy mindset and power fantasies. And internet censorship might further radicalize those individuals as they would have nowhere else to vent their frustrations or community hugboxes that could work as a coping mechanism.
Here are my proposals:
1 - STOP using female depression as a metric for male depression:
This Twitter/X thread by Adam Lane Smith sums it up perfectly:
View: https://twitter.com/TheBrometheus/status/1676925337194704897
Especially the points:
- Male depression and female depression often present very differently, and they also tend to heal differently. But most therapy modalities are really only geared to help women recover. Many can actually make men more depressed.
- Men need to feel powerful to be mentally and emotionally healthy. Powerless men feel broken and afraid. Emasculated. To help a man feel better, you must help him feel powerful.
- The male suicide rate is not about wanting to die. It’s about feeling powerless, hopeless, and helpless for way too long. To fix it, we have to make life more appealing than the peace of death. We have to give men power over their lives.
- Male depression is nearly always a result of learned helplessness, but health providers treat it like female depression and try to make men feel loved instead of powerful.
-Most depressed men probably don't need medication. Even then ones who do need it need more than just medication. Depressed men need purpose, a mission, and the power to accomplish that mission.Give a man those 3 things and he can crawl over broken glass with a smile.
- Most women are disgusted when they finally learn how the male sex drive works. Then they test to see if it's true, and when it is, they start to like the new power they hold.
- Most men today can't imagine a space just for men. Every space that was originally for men has been taken over for women seeking attention or somewhere to hang out. And when women invade more spaces that men inhabit, modern men are programmed to withdraw without complaining.
- More women hold college degrees than men and are unlikely to date down in earning potential. This is leading to immense frustration in women who climb the social ladder and then compete for a dwindling population of men. Hardly anyone one is talking about this dating disaster.
2 - People and the large media should start acknowledging average women have a large (and "unfair") advantage over average men in dating:
I mean, it's everywhere now. There is overwhelming data that women nowadays tend to proactively exclusively chase men noticeably above their league in terms of perceived sexual value in physical appearance and in status. There is also hard data that average women have far more sex parners in a short lifespan than most men will have will have during their entire lives. You can find several references online, including academic ones, concluding these facts. Surveys, data from dating services, makes the whole argument and ordeal undeniable.
You can find some references on the incel wiki:
Scientific Blackpill
The Scientific Blackpill is about understanding the nature of human social and sexual behavior with a particular focus on evolutionary psychological perspectives...
Scientific Blackpill (Supplemental)
This page is can be thought of as a sequel to the Scientific Blackpill which is also mostly focuses on inceldom, but additionally covers gender war related topics...
To get thinks worse, most of the social media is focused on pictures/videos these days, so there is a great emphasis in physical appearance, and women are the number 1 consumers of such media, so they now give a great deal of importance in looks, and on top of that they have a wide array of options since the popularization of the internet as a medium earlier this century because they have access to a never possible before amount of potential male partners, so they shallowly pick the best looking ones of the bunch as they have many options. Women back in the day used to find partners in their local parties or within their school or work environment, now they can have connections with men all around the world.
People need to stop thinking the female dating experience is similar to the male dating experience. It is not. Also, many women use their personal experience with male good looking friends as a parameter of male success in dating, but the fact is, these men are the absolute exception, and not the rule. The average man also have to work way harder than a woman to get sex partners, while a woman just need to vent their desires for companionship and they will instantly have candidates available.
3 - There should be a public debate on how to deal with the issue of male loneliness:
I strongly believe that if prostitution was not a taboo or straight illegal topic in most regions aroung the world, most of the concerns about male loneliness in those places would be non-issues. We need to abandon laws based on religious puritanism from centuries ago to provide better professional conditions to both sex workers and clients alike of such services. Men need to be able to offer women money for sex freely if the act itself is of noncoercive nature. This is not exploitative as accepting such offer or not is still a woman's decision, and they will be rewarded for it. In most countries nowadays, if you post an advertisement somewhere "I will pay $100 an hour for any blonde bimbo-type woman to have sex with me" you will be arrested for it, but this is not fair as this is a consesual agreement between two consenting adults. This needs to be reviewed, and many women would love to have that easy money and keep the low profile as they would not want to have prostitution as an official profession. So this would work to the great benefit of women themselves.
Also, people need to look for alternatives instead of simply demonizing lonely men for craving sex and companionship and start working with them instead of against them. Like I said before, simply suggesting therapy won't cut it; what works for women in therapy will not work for men. Most men don't need validation. They need to feel powerful, they need to feel they are in charge of their lives, they need to feel capable. They need to feel their dreams can be achieved, even with some (small, and not severe) concessions. And that includes sex, companionship, and starting a family. Which is getting incredibly difficult by the day for reasons beyond the control and power of men. Incel men are taxpayers too, and currently there is zero elements in most places pandering to them in any level.
Censorship is not the solution. Deplatforming incels, and making incels "shutting the fuck up" about their frustations with women and their feeling of loneliness, then doing absolutely nothing to address this, is not going to stop men from having bad ideas, in fact, it is going to make them further bitter and hateful as like I said before, there is no "pandering" to them and society in no way sees them as victimized or oppressed people. This is an incredibly bad time in history where those issues overlap with female pandering and feminist agenda by the strong far-left propaganda this century, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue if the thing going on was just the hypergamy, but what we have is the feminism plus hypergamy combo.
I personally do not seek to "depower" women. I seek for more freedom for men to fulfill their needs. I hope someday someone will put a thought to this, either men or women in power.
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