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White Sovietism The ideology of Putinism

Anarcho Nihilist

Anarcho Nihilist

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The Belosovki (White Soviets) are the people who supported the Whites in the Civil War, but also supported Stalin's USSR in World War II.
They revere Kolchak and Denikin, because even during the Civil War, when they needed to ally with other forces, they refused to make territorial concessions to the independence movements. They wanted Russia to be the same size as it was before 1914, and they were not willing to compromise.
For example, the future Marshal of Finland, Karl Mannerheim, wrote to Kolchak that the White Finns could enter Petrograd (St. Petersburg) and kill all the local Bolsheviks in exchange for recognition of their independence.

"Regarding the Finnish movement into Karelia, we have received reassuring assurances from the French government, which we consider entirely satisfactory.
We believe that we should not protest now, as this could only complicate our relations with Finland, with which, in order to carry out joint actions against Petrograd, it is essential to establish the friendliest relations...
While fully approving of your efforts to establish a Russian administration in the liberated regions of Karelia, we believe that friction with Mannerheim must be avoided, since there remains hope for his movement against Petrograd..."

A little later, on June 23, Kolchak also addressed a letter to the commander of the Finnish army, General Mannerheim, attempting to deceive him with promises. He writes: "In these decisive days of our struggle against the destructive and anarchic remnants of Bolshevism, I would be failing in my duty to Russia if I did not address Your Excellency with a completely open and deeply trusting appeal, prompted by my concern for saving countless human lives languishing under the yoke of Bolshevism.
I proceed from the conviction that everything possible must be done to achieve the most rapid crushing of Bolshevism. Therefore, I would like to hope that you will encourage the Finnish government to participate in the common cause and take decisive measures to liberate Russia's northern capital, beginning active operations in the direction of Petrograd.
On behalf of the Russian government, I wish to declare to you that now is not the time for doubts and hesitations related to any political issues, and I do not allow the possibility of any future irresolvable misunderstandings between liberated Russia and the Finnish nation. I ask you, General, to accept this appeal of mine as a sign of the unwavering memory of the Russian army." "About your glorious past in its ranks and Russia's sincere respect for the national freedom of the Finnish people."
Admiral Kolchak"
In response to Kolchak's appeal, the latter responded from Stockholm on July 10, 1919: "I ask Your Excellency to accept my gratitude for the telegram of June 23, which I received on the 4th of this month. The majority of the Finnish people, together with me, are following with sympathy the struggle that you, at the head of the brave Russian troops, are waging to exterminate Bolshevism, especially since we are also taking part in it."Having crushed the Red uprising in Finland, supported and directed by the Soviet government, and then, as volunteers, responded to the call of the Estonian people and the population of the Olonetsk province in their difficult struggle against the Bolsheviks.
Although I am confident that I can henceforth destroy any attempt to raise the red banner of revolution in Finland, we nevertheless know that the Soviet regime there represents a constant threat to us and is far from indifferent to the suffering endured by the Russian people under the Bolshevik yoke. Beyond the humanitarian aspect of the matter, the capture of Petrograd would be of great significance as a stronghold for Soviet military operations in northern Russia, given the concentration there of all threads of northern Russian revolutionary propaganda. Therefore, the Finnish people and their government are far from averse to the idea of regular Finnish troops participating in the liberation of Petrograd. I will not conceal from you, Mr. Admiral, that in the opinion of my government, the Finnish Diet will not approve of an undertaking that, although beneficial to us, requires heavy sacrifices, unless we receive guarantees that the new Russia, in whose favor we have begun to act, has agreed to certain conditions, the fulfillment of which we consider not only essential for our participation but also a necessary guarantee for our national and state existence.
Karl. Mannerheim."
(Mannerheim more than transparently hinted at recognition of Finland's independence.)
and this is just one case where White leaders deprived themselves of potential allies with their arrogance and obsession with territorial numbers on maps.
 
It's just arrogance and unwillingness to compromise, and it's a minus for an ally. It's all about the obsession with territory.
 
White sovietism bingo
-Nostalgia for the USSR, but at the same time sympathy for the "imperial" or "monarchical" past;

- belief in a "great power", regardless of the system - whether it is a tsar, Stalin or a strong president;

- justification of despotism if it is "for the good of the country";

- often apolitical in terms of ideology, but emotionally patriotic;

- can simultaneously admire Zhukov and Wrangel, Stalin and Nicholas II - without internal contradiction for themselves. - - - - they hate Nazism and support the USSR 100% in World War II.
- they are also categorically against any separatism or separation of other nations from the Russian Empire / USSR, and they do not accept any territorial losses, even if non-Russian territories with Muslims ( Central Asia ) leave.
 
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Same case was with Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, other freshly independent countries during Russian Civil War - they built significant military force (and even won a war against Bolsheviks in 1920), and could possibly support whites even with expedition corps, but guess what - Whites didn't recognised them as independent and treated them like as always - vassals.
Russian's imperial pride basically gave them failure in civil war, because nobody except old Entente (out of pity) supported Whites, who wasn't only imperialist, but even divided to many stupid fractions, and nobody knew who's to support.
Lenin at least was smart - initially he built an appeasable image of Soviets, who were willing to give up things over peace (in reality we know how this ended up eventually), but old guards just straight up, even when their asses were burning, wasn't giving up over forever lost territories.
That's your Russian mentality. Despite being biggest country in the world - they're still throwing up manpower & money over scorched by shelling earth.
 
@Cryotron @Excalibur @DarkStar
 
Same case was with Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, other freshly independent countries during Russian Civil War - they built significant military force (and even won a war against Bolsheviks in 1920), and could possibly support whites even with expedition corps, but guess what - Whites didn't recognised them as independent and treated them like as always - vassals.
Russian's imperial pride basically gave them failure in civil war, because nobody except old Entente (out of pity) supported Whites, who wasn't only imperialist, but even divided to many stupid fractions, and nobody knew who's to support.
Lenin at least was smart - initially he built an appeasable image of Soviets, who were willing to give up things over peace (in reality we know how this ended up eventually), but old guards just straight up, even when their asses were burning, wasn't giving up over forever lost territories.
That's your Russian mentality. Despite being biggest country in the world - they're still throwing up manpower & money over scorched by shelling earth.
Yes, but bitch, Finland, where even in the times of the tsars had nothing to do with Russia not in the ethnic (only Finns and Swedes lived there) not in the religious (only Lutherans lived there ) not in the economic (the Finns had their own currencies and an economic system separated from the empire) and even here greed played its role, well, like to exchange recognition of independence for the fact that the Bolsheviks will be beaten out by the Finns without Petrograd it's an ideal deal.
 
@Anarcho Nihilist
Everything they put their hands on is marked by their stench, and they want to influence it, no matter if it's cultural compactible or not.
Sometimes i'm watching translated Russian TV propaganda out of laugh, and it's pretty funny how gargantuic butthurt they have. They call every former clients of Russian sphere, who left - as an "ungrateful, bloodthirsty maniacs manipulated by the US". I also translate sometimes Russian internet forums, and i was dying in laugh, when they were raging over Kazakhstan, because standard of living there become higher than in Russia.
I've heard similar thing with greed/pride was with Imperial China. When at the end of XIX century Chinks were beaten up by Japs where they lost Korea, they were so humiliated and pissed off because they considered Japan as an inferior and younger cousin (similar shit with Russia and Ukraine).
I guess Russia hasn't ridden of it's XIX century's colonial mentality, stuck in the era of wars and conquers, when today influence & power is gained through economy and trade.
 
Same case was with Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, other freshly independent countries during Russian Civil War - they built significant military force (and even won a war against Bolsheviks in 1920), and could possibly support whites even with expedition corps, but guess what - Whites didn't recognised them as independent and treated them like as always - vassals.
Russian's imperial pride basically gave them failure in civil war, because nobody except old Entente (out of pity) supported Whites, who wasn't only imperialist, but even divided to many stupid fractions, and nobody knew who's to support.
Lenin at least was smart - initially he built an appeasable image of Soviets, who were willing to give up things over peace (in reality we know how this ended up eventually), but old guards just straight up, even when their asses were burning, wasn't giving up over forever lost territories.
That's your Russian mentality. Despite being biggest country in the world - they're still throwing up manpower & money over scorched by shelling earth.
This is, by the way, the main difference between Russian nationalism and European nationalism. All European nationalists wanted was to create a single state for each individual nationality. In other words, Italians wanted to live in one state because they were Italians, and Germans wanted to live in one country because they were all Germans. The Russian Empire and Russian imperial nationalism, on the other hand, only sought territorial expansion, regardless of ethnic composition.
 
@Anarcho Nihilist
Everything they put their hands on is marked by their stench, and they want to influence it, no matter if it's cultural compactible or not.
Sometimes i'm watching translated Russian TV propaganda out of laugh, and it's pretty funny how gargantuic butthurt they have. They call every former clients of Russian sphere, who left - as an "ungrateful, bloodthirsty maniacs manipulated by the US". I also translate sometimes Russian internet forums, and i was dying in laugh, when they were raging over Kazakhstan, because standard of living there become higher than in Russia.
I've heard similar thing with greed/pride was with Imperial China. When at the end of XIX century Chinks were beaten up by Japs where they lost Korea, they were so humiliated and pissed off because they considered Japan as an inferior and younger cousin (similar shit with Russia and Ukraine).
I guess Russia hasn't ridden of it's XIX century's colonial mentality, stuck in the era of wars and conquers, when today influence & power is gained through economy and trade.
The only thing that matters to Russians is the size of their territory. After 2014 and the annexation of Crimea (for the sake of 20,000 square kilometers), Russia experienced economic stagnation and poverty. The value of the dollar doubled (from 30 rubles to 60 rubles), and all this was done for a small territory in Russia's context.
 
The only thing that matters to Russians is the size of their territory. After 2014 and the annexation of Crimea (for the sake of 20,000 square kilometers), Russia experienced economic stagnation and poverty. The value of the dollar doubled (from 30 rubles to 60 rubles), and all this was done for a small territory in Russia's context.
I've seen funny, but pretty accurate quote made by one of Russians back then
I don't fucking care if i cannot afford food and i'm forced to grow up tomatoes in my flat on my own, but at least - Crimea is ours.
 
I've seen funny, but pretty accurate quote made by one of Russians back then
Obsession with territory size at any cost: the cost of poverty, huge human losses, and so on.
 
Obsession with territory size at any cost: the cost of poverty, huge human losses, and so on.
What exactly is the end goal? Is Russia waiting to become America 2.0 with extreme wealth and super weapons?
 
What exactly is the end goal? Is Russia waiting to become America 2.0 with extreme wealth and super weapons?
No, their goal is just to expand their territory until the whole world is Russian.
Anything will do, from Pan-Slavism to world revolution and Marxism, as long as it can be captured and incorporated.
 
This is, by the way, the main difference between Russian nationalism and European nationalism. All European nationalists wanted was to create a single state for each individual nationality. In other words, Italians wanted to live in one state because they were Italians, and Germans wanted to live in one country because they were all Germans. The Russian Empire and Russian imperial nationalism, on the other hand, only sought territorial expansion, regardless of ethnic composition.
Yes, Russian nationalism has always been civic. They view Russia primarily as a state and empire, and only secondarily as a nation. Russian nationalism is neither ethnic nor racial in nature. It does not define Russians as a distinct volk bound by blood, but merely as citizens among many others of the Russian state or empire. It's really just a form of statism created by the tsarist regime to keep the empire stable and united to prevent it from disintegrating due to ethnic tribalism. It keeps ethnic Russians happy by making them think their government represents them as a nation, while also including several non-Russian minorities and letting them assimilate by pushing the idea that being Russian is just about language and loyalty to the Russian state.

Apart from fringe movements, there has never been a genuine, organic Russian nationalism that believed in a state that serves the nation and not the other way around.
 
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'Russianess' is more so defined by loyalty to the Tsar or whatever other title that the despot of the Russian state goes by rather than any idea of shared blood or culture.
 
but the soviets were already white?
 
but the soviets were already white?
1761050631383
 
Same case was with Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, other freshly independent countries during Russian Civil War - they built significant military force (and even won a war against Bolsheviks in 1920), and could possibly support whites even with expedition corps, but guess what - Whites didn't recognised them as independent and treated them like as always - vassals.
Russian's imperial pride basically gave them failure in civil war, because nobody except old Entente (out of pity) supported Whites, who wasn't only imperialist, but even divided to many stupid fractions, and nobody knew who's to support.
Lenin at least was smart - initially he built an appeasable image of Soviets, who were willing to give up things over peace (in reality we know how this ended up eventually), but old guards just straight up, even when their asses were burning, wasn't giving up over forever lost territories.
That's your Russian mentality. Despite being biggest country in the world - they're still throwing up manpower & money over scorched by shelling earth.
It wasn't their imperial pride. Imperial Russia was always doomed to fall. Industrialization created an modern economy, stuck in an feudal, autocratic system. Plus, the misery of the peasents was unsustainable. And industrialization was late compared to their peers/other europeans. The Empire was overstreched + ethnically volitate. Good luck maintaing an state with those debuffs. Poland and other territories won wars against the Bolsheviks because they hit them while they were weak. The Bolsheviks did more for Russia, than the Imperial System ever could. Russia was doomed to collapse since the Crimean war.
 
'Russianess' is more so defined by loyalty to the Tsar or whatever other title that the despot of the Russian state goes by rather than any idea of shared blood or culture.
Absolutely correct. Peter the Great said, and Vladimir Putin affirmed: "Russian is one who loves Russia and serves Russia". Russian is a man of service to his country - the idea of Russia. In this interpretation Stalin is as much russian as Peter the Great, Vladimir Putin or Alexander III. Vladimir Putin is a russian leader through and through, the line of his political tradition is unbroken.
 
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Yes, Russian nationalism has always been civic. They view Russia primarily as a state and empire, and only secondarily as a nation. Russian nationalism is neither ethnic nor racial in nature. It does not define Russians as a distinct volk bound by blood, but merely as citizens among many others of the Russian state or empire. It's really just a form of statism created by the tsarist regime to keep the empire stable and united to prevent it from disintegrating due to ethnic tribalism. It keeps ethnic Russians happy by making them think their government represents them as a nation, while also including several non-Russian minorities and letting them assimilate by pushing the idea that being Russian is just about language and loyalty to the Russian state.

Apart from fringe movements, there has never been a genuine, organic Russian nationalism that believed in a state that serves the nation and not the other way around.
Excellent summary.
 

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