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What Russia should have done in Ukraine

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WizardofSoda

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To me a great power should not be taking large risks. It should be just small moves, where even if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't cost them that much. Its like when Russia was backing the separatists in Ukraine since 2015 with money, weaponry, mercenaries, supplies.. even if the Ukrainian army eventually defeated the separatists it wouldn't be that bad for Russia. It wasn't costing the Russians that much.

The Russians could let the separatists emigrate to Russia, and say to them, ya too bad you fought it out and you lost.
 
Azov battalion did the massacre so they must pay it with their blood.
 
should have nuked it
 
To me a great power should not be taking large risks. It should be just small moves, where even if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't cost them that much. Its like when Russia was backing the separatists in Ukraine since 2015 with money, weaponry, mercenaries, supplies.. even if the Ukrainian army eventually defeated the separatists it wouldn't be that bad for Russia. It wasn't costing the Russians that much.

The Russians could let the separatists emigrate to Russia, and say to them, ya too bad you fought it out and you lost.
I still believe it begun as a stunt to get concessions from the west but when the west called his bluff out Putin was forced to enter this debacle else he risked showing weakness and losing power by backing down. Yeah Ukraine is way too large and has way too much foreign support of all kinds for Russia to easily sweep it. The way this invasion was executed is obviously a mistake but it is not like accepting another NATO client state right under their industrial heartland is a good outlook for Russia. It makes sense that they perceive post-Euromaidan Ukraine as NATO aligned(therefore de facto anti-Russia).
Tbh it can be argued that this conflict was inevitable and matter of time since 2014. So Russia(from the POV of their self-interest) either should have a) Anticipate this conflict more clearly and rolled Ukraine over several years ago, before they could train/build army and get supplied by the west. b) Shouldn't have squandered their military budget for oligarch corruption and kept a competent reformist and modernizer in leadership like Serdyukov c) Prepared for fierce resistance from the beginning and create enough casus belli for at least partial mobilization instead of entering war with lackluster excuses and limiting themselves with current active personnel.
should have nuked it
Based but realistically they aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation themselves.
 
I still believe it begun as a stunt to get concessions from the west but when the west called his bluff out Putin was forced to enter this debacle else he risked showing weakness and losing power by backing down. Yeah Ukraine is way too large and has way too much foreign support of all kinds for Russia to easily sweep it. The way this invasion was executed is obviously a mistake but it is not like accepting another NATO client state right under their industrial heartland is a good outlook for Russia. It makes sense that they perceive post-Euromaidan Ukraine as NATO aligned(therefore de facto anti-Russia).
Tbh it can be argued that this conflict was inevitable and matter of time since 2014. So Russia(from the POV of their self-interest) either should have a) Anticipate this conflict more clearly and rolled Ukraine over several years ago, before they could train/build army and get supplied by the west. b) Shouldn't have squandered their military budget for oligarch corruption and kept a competent reformist and modernizer in leadership like Serdyukov c) Prepared for fierce resistance from the beginning and create enough casus belli for at least partial mobilization instead of entering war with lackluster excuses and limiting themselves with current active personnel.

Based but realistically they aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation themselves.

Ya I think back in 2014 when Russia had control of Ukraine through the pro-Russian proxy government, and then somehow Russia lost that control, and in 2014 was at the end of that 6 year oil boom, as oil goes through 6 year booms and 6 years bear markets in price. So in 2014 Russia was doing well economically, had made unarguable progress in standard of living at home, and just had a ton of money. And meanwhile like you said this was before NATO was building up Ukraine, and Ukraine was poor and in shambles(which is why the Russians lost control of it, is they failed to run it because of their usual massive corruption).. the corruption only really works today if you are an oil state. Like the Gulf Kingdoms. Because essentially the corrupt they are stealing the resource wealth. And even though these shitty feudal societies have no real internal economy that can be taxed enough to support a modern state, the resources wealth can pay for the state if the resources production is big enough.

But Ukraine doesn't have the resources production, so the feudal model didn't work, which is why they were in such a crisis back in 2014. So like you said that was the moment to go in, and Russia did swoop in and take Crimea with no military resistance.

Once a pro-Western government came in Ukraine and then NATO was in there building up Ukraine, and in the last few years Ukraine actually has been making economic progress since the USA is setting up their state and reforming them to be a modern state. Then it was too late, the Ukrainians were going to fight if Russia came in, and the USA & co. were going to back the Ukraine government with huge amounts of money in that case. So then to go in Russia would need a world war level army and a brutal fight to overwhelm the Ukrainian army and take over the state. The 250,000 soldiers Russia went in with wasn't enough to take over Ukraine.

The problem with the half-ass strategy Russia had to transition to, to taking and holding the 4 SE provinces with ~125,000 Russian soldiers. Is imo its not enough soldiers to defend it over time. So the Ukrainians look like they are going to have like a 1 million man army by the end of the Summer. And there is going to be multiple big offensives the Ukrainians will likely launch in the Fall.

I view that Russia will have to mobilize a lot of the reserves if it wants to defend against that. Then it will be a big time slugfest, and war of attrition but against NATO funding. Granted Russia should be able to hold on until Winter when things will probably slow way down, then have time to reinforce things getting ready for the Spring offensives.

The thing is this mobilization should have been done before the war.
 
The problem with the half-ass strategy Russia had to transition to, to taking and holding the 4 SE provinces with ~125,000 Russian soldiers. Is imo its not enough soldiers to defend it over time. So the Ukrainians look like they are going to have like a 1 million man army by the end of the Summer. And there is going to be multiple big offensives the Ukrainians will likely launch in the Fall.

I view that Russia will have to mobilize a lot of the reserves if it wants to defend against that. Then it will be a big time slugfest, and war of attrition but against NATO funding. Granted Russia should be able to hold on until Winter when things will probably slow way down, then have time to reinforce things getting ready for the Spring offensives.

The thing is this mobilization should have been done before the war.
Yes that's what I feel is so weird about this ordeal. Why is Russian leadership still refusing to mobilize men even though it is obvious to anyone that a full scale war with a well armed massive country like Ukraine can not be won with current number of limited soldiers(of which they already suffered sizable losses and some desertions). They can win Donbass probably but it seems unlikely that Ukraine will yield after that. At best they can get temporary cease fire but that benefits Ukraine more as it means more time for Western aid. Is it so hard to fake a terror attack inside Russia and then blame it on Ukrainians like they did in the Chechen wars to gain domestic support for formal declaration of war and subsequent mobilization?
Nevertheless this should have been done at the beginning of the war. They should have mobilized and attempted a proper invasion instead of excepting the whole country to be more or less handed to them. Insane how hard they fucked up in the beginning.
 
Yes that's what I feel is so weird about this ordeal. Why is Russian leadership still refusing to mobilize men even though it is obvious to anyone that a full scale war with a well armed massive country like Ukraine can not be won with current number of limited soldiers(of which they already suffered sizable losses and some desertions). They can win Donbass probably but it seems unlikely that Ukraine will yield after that. At best they can get temporary cease fire but that benefits Ukraine more as it means more time for Western aid. Is it so hard to fake a terror attack inside Russia and then blame it on Ukrainians like they did in the Chechen wars to gain domestic support for formal declaration of war and subsequent mobilization?
Nevertheless this should have been done at the beginning of the war. They should have mobilized and attempted a proper invasion instead of excepting the whole country to be more or less handed to them. Insane how hard they fucked up in the beginning.

I think what Russia might be trying now is to get as much of the Donbas as they can, and then try for a peace deal where they get the areas they control. Problem I see is I don't think the Ukrainians are going to agree to that now. When Ukraine has a growing numerical superiority and NATO backing, why would they agree to a deal.

One idea in retrospect is if Russia had like a 500,000 mobilized army ready to go into Ukraine, and placed soldiers around Ukraine looking like they were going to go in, and maybe even going slightly into Ukraine near Kiev and other cities, it would have pinned down the Ukrainian army to stay on defense for those cities.

And then a huge offensive launched into the 4 SE provinces and overwhelming the areas the Ukraine government controlled of those. And then stopping the war there with however much progress they made fast. The justification for the war could have been to protect ethnic Russians in those provinces who allegedly were being killed by neo-Nazi groups. Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight.

I think this is sort of what Russia was trying to threaten to take the whole country, and then agree to just get however much of the ethnic Russian provinces as they took in the original offensive and who Russia thought would go with them by choice more or less. Problem was when Ukraine was able to defend and Russia wasn't going to be able to overthrow the government of Ukraine, then Ukraine didn't have to negotiate.

Russia needed a reason to have a mass mobilization of reserves politically and declaration of war to legally do that. However thinking about it if Russia declared war then was mobilizing its reserves, then NATO would be arming the hell out of Ukraine, and Ukraine would also be mobilizing.

One theory on why Russia isn't doing a mobilization is they might not have the officers and logistics to support more troops anyway. But in that case Russia should have chosen more limited political objectives or just not gone in at all.

A theory I have on why Russia went in so unprepared is that the Donbas might have been near to falling to the Ukrainian army. If Russia had waited by then the Ukrainians might have gotten full control of those provinces. But then we are back to why not just send huge amounts of money, weapons and mercenaries to back them up. However Russia might have been doing that and still losing.
 
Problem I see is I don't think the Ukrainians are going to agree to that now. When Ukraine has a growing numerical superiority and NATO backing, why would they agree to a deal.
Even if they crush Ukrainians in Donbas(that much of a decisive victory isn't very probable) Ukraine wouldn't agree to surrender while they have the upper hand. At best they get a cease fire which as I said before more useful for Ukraine than Russia, unless they mobilize. Without time to regroup and replenish losses, Russia will not be able to launch any major offensive operations for a while. So they pretty much end up stuck on the clock until the inevitable Ukrainian counter offensive.
One theory on why Russia isn't doing a mobilization is they might not have the officers and logistics to support more troops anyway. But in that case Russia should have chosen more limited political objectives or just not gone in at all.
Officers can be hastily promoted(sure that wouldn't be very efficient, but more soldiers are still better than less even under subpar leadership.)
As for logistics I believe the Ukrainian terrain and infrastructure are the limiting factor here rather than Russia's own logistics capabilities.
The mobilized soldiers could have been sent through western, southern and northern Ukraine to divert Ukrainian army and still be useful without stressing Donbas logistics.
Your points are interesting but I am not fully convinced here tbh.
A theory I have on why Russia went in so unprepared is that the Donbas might have been near to falling to the Ukrainian army. If Russia had waited by then the Ukrainians might have gotten full control of those provinces. But then we are back to why not just send huge amounts of money, weapons and mercenaries to back them up. However Russia might have been doing that and still losing.
Yes I recall some talks and rumors of Russian military predicting that a Ukrainian counter offensive retaking DPR and LPR quickly if they reignited the frozen conflict. That also potentially motivated this invasion.
Still insane that they spent 8 years making so little preparation against Ukraine.
 
Even if they crush Ukrainians in Donbas(that much of a decisive victory isn't very probable) Ukraine wouldn't agree to surrender while they have the upper hand. At best they get a cease fire which as I said before more useful for Ukraine than Russia, unless they mobilize. Without time to regroup and replenish losses, Russia will not be able to launch any major offensive operations for a while. So they pretty much end up stuck on the clock until the inevitable Ukrainian counter offensive.

Officers can be hastily promoted(sure that wouldn't be very efficient, but more soldiers are still better than less even under subpar leadership.)
As for logistics I believe the Ukrainian terrain and infrastructure are the limiting factor here rather than Russia's own logistics capabilities.
The mobilized soldiers could have been sent through western, southern and northern Ukraine to divert Ukrainian army and still be useful without stressing Donbas logistics.
Your points are interesting but I am not fully convinced here tbh.

Yes I recall some talks and rumors of Russian military predicting that a Ukrainian counter offensive retaking DPR and LPR quickly if they reignited the frozen conflict. That also potentially motivated this invasion.
Still insane that they spent 8 years making so little preparation against Ukraine.

Good points I agree that more soldiers are better than less even if its not great organization. What Russia needed was huge amounts of boring old infantry. And how hard is that to train them and equip them. You don't even need armored vehicles, just regular cars and trucks to transport them around. And a ton of trucks to carry ammo and supplies around.

A big issue with going with a huge amount of infantry like that is basically if the Ukrainians fight back then it was going to be massive casualties which I don't think the Russians were politically ready to accept.


A lot of war is preparing this big time army and showing you have the will to go all the way, and the opponent they see they aren't going to win it.. but they still test you to see if you actually have the will to go all the way. But if you show them you do then the opponent doesn't fight because it would be futile anyway. Then giving the other side a not bad deal.

What I get the feeling with Russia is they don't have smart people who can sit down and over weeks and months think through things. The Soviet Union they had the Jews and Georgians who took over and were making the decisions. And Imperial Russia had the Russian aristocracy but most of them got killed or fled.

I get the image of Russians and Ukrainians and all Eastern Europeans as these outgoing guys who like drinking, going to parties, going on vacations, talking on their phones all the time, going shopping with their mistresses, etc... but not anybody who can just sit down at a desk and work through things.

Like to know the Russians, Ukrainians and Poles these are peasant farming peoples.
 

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