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Marxism #11 Surplus Value and financial exploitation of Workers

And in the Soviet Union or any other Marxist country, were the workers paid in full for their labor or was there still a surplus value which they did not receive? From my understanding they not receive it, otherwise there would be no funding for the government to run the industry with, if the bourgeoisie didn't take it the government would have to, correct? A bourgeois takes the workers surplus value in order to continue paying for the operation of the factory, buying more resources to turn into products using his workers labour power, to expand industry further so that he can profit even more, and to take some for himself as we know. And under the Soviet system would it not be the same thing? value would be taken from the workers in order to pay for the operation of the factory and expand industry in the same way, as well as paying the managerial. So in order to convince us that the Soviet system was better in this sense than the bourgeoise, you would have to prove that their wages or quality of life are better for example, that we would have more resources and be more prosperous having our output taxed by the government instead of the bourgeoise.
That's why many Marxists have characterised the Soviet system as state capitalist. Workers were not paid the full value of their labour and surplus value was expropriated by the state. The only difference was who appropriated it. This does not matter because the exploitative relation remained. That's why the claim workers "owned" the means of production is dubious at best. As a result of Cold War propaganda, many people are only familiar with the depiction of Marxism as Marxism-Leninism (or Stalinism) and it's a convenient strawman so they don't have to engage with Marxism as a living tradition with a diversity of views.
 
How do they decide whether to buy it or not ?
By voting ? If so, this would still be imposing a decision to (some of) the workers.
Would these unsatify workers be allowed to leave the company and make their own again ? This would be back to capitalism, in a way.
I have a few points to make here.

1. Why would the unsatisfied workers simply walk out? That is assuming walking out is even an option in a communist society unless there is another workplace that requires their specific skills. People don't leave the country because their favoured party didn't win the election. I don't think they'll leave their workplace over a faulty machine.

2. By saying that the new machine is too expensive you've already made this situation Capitalism coded. If this is a worker co-op under Capitalism then the workers will do what the Capitalist owner would've done, save as much money as possible and worry only about the bottom line.

But even if it's not coming out of their own pockets we can still imagine that the new machine is hard to acquire in a Socialist system. But I don't believe this situation should lead to such a wide division because the condition of the machine and it's impact on output is an objective fact.

3. We have examples of this situation working out in real life. Publically traded companies are quite literally publically owned. They do it by breaking up the ownership into shares and then have individuals own those shares, because it's not true Capitalism without a tinge of individualism and alienation.

The majority shareholders meet once per year to vote on major issues and hire the executive management and then leave the company upto the management. Of course this is a very Capitalistic model since the company is owned by investors not workers and shareholder bottom line is the deciding factor in everything.

But the point is, there can be a million ways to manage public ownership.

and the workers are free to leave if they disagree with the decision.
How is this any different from the same problem in Socialism? Even there the workers may get dissatisfied from the majority's or management's decision and leave the socialised workplace. Maybe in some cases they may not have a choice because there is nowhere else to go to, but that's also true for many workers in Capitalism. They'll have to keep working with the faulty and potentially dangerous machine because their owner doesn't want to replace it and they cannot leave for elsewhere.

Also you seem to be confusing worker co-op under capitalism with a workplace under socialism. In the latter situation the worker is not tied to his workplace via personal capital investment because private ownership as a concept does not exist. Depending on how the system is organised workers can move between workplaces and jobs. But each time they are the ones who have the final say on their workplace. (Or atleast they should)

I would add that the workers can join each others the express their disagreement, and even threaten to abandon the company.
This is what unions are (or rather were) for.
If the workers can have a say because their work is necessary then we have already contradicted the assumption that Capitalists should have the final say. In which case we might as well take this situation to it's logical conclusion and establish socialism.

Unions are a stepping stone towards communism. It's the slippery slope of allowing workers ever more power until they take control of the economy itself and abolish private ownership in the hands of few.

.

Finally, you also have a very naive view of capitalists, you seem to think they just do nothing all they long and a paycheck falls in their pockets at the end of the month.
This might be the case for some, but not for most. Most capitalists still work, not with their hands sure, but management, economic decisions, logistics, finding clients or parteners, etc, is all necessary work, and yes, capitalists often do lots of this themselves.

I'm glad you made this point. I don't claim that Capitalists do not work, they do work. Sometimes A LOT. But they are still humans and there's only so much work that you can do in a day.

The issue is that their earnings do not come from that work itself but from Surplus Value accumulated via the virtue of owning the means of production. Jeff Bezos is not a billionare because he works 20 hours a day. He is a billionare because he can extract value from the millions of hours of work done by Amazon delivery people every day.

A counter example is, again, publically traded corporations. They are run entirely by a professional managerial class. They make good money sure but it's still salary. Some actual owners do nothing but invest money that they already have and count the profits.

"good guys vs bad guys"
Marx's theory does not make this a moral issue. That's why Engels differentiates Scientific Socialism from Utopian Socialism. They pointed out systematic issues in the very logic of Capitalism and why it can't be allowed to reign freely. People took notice and that's why most governments today have some left wing economic policies.

The issue is systematic. The logic of Capitalism inadvertently leads to poverty if left unchecked.

I know what I really want, I don't need Marx or anyone else to tell me what my problems and needs are.
The idea is for people to understand how the system works. They can draw their own conclusions. Ho Chin Minh, leader of the Viet-Min , when asked about the state of poor education of workers in his country and their ability to understand marxist French intellectuals, said that despite their education workers can understand this stuff better than the intellectuals because they are actually living the consequence of surplus extraction and see it with their own eyes.
 
. also you can deny as much as you want that marx was a jew but your wrong he had many jewish and Zionist friends he had Jewish blood himself there's no such thing as a jew who hates other jews all jews are only loyal to the Jewish state and people mostly because of their history of being a landless people after being expelled from isreal.
I don't see how any of this is even remotely relevant.

. lol you didn't even read communist manifesto your not even real communist
Good thing then that I don't consider myself one.

anyway tell me this is communism jewish yes or no.
That question makes no sense. Might as well ask if special relativity is hindu or something

i challenge you to go and read or watch national socialist works like mien kampf or europa the last battle and you still wont answer me if communism is a jewish ideology or not.
Mein kampf has been on my to read for years now. People say it's a drab book so I put it off.

I checked the Wikipedia on that documentary you mentioned and frankly I have no interest in watching 12 hours of anti-Semitic rambling.
 
Nice!
What is you academic background?
Are you a trained economist ?
My education is in tech. Though I characterise what I've written here as philosophy of political economy instead of economics itself
 
@Sewer Stomper
You also overestimate how much the average white person hates someone who started a business and would be considered bourgeoise, the average person only hates the "super rich" which is not what class is about in Marxism, people don't actually hate the bourgeoisie because they have no reason to hate a fellow white person who loves America and started a business,

Never said anything as such. If anything people don't hate the rich enough. Also it doesn't matter to me what the average white person or brown person thinks because everyone's minds are already under the spell of Capitalism. I'm just here to watch the material reality unfold and the dialectic play out, meanwhile pointing out the fundamental issues with our current world.

Maybe you nigfags would be more convincing if you tried to hide your utter contempt for white people and your desire for our extinction, but you never can. You always have to explicitly admit that you view us as evil and that we may perish, that we don't deserve to have any country of our own, that Britain must become Islamic through mass immigration. And you call any attempt to keep our nations sovereign, to keep Germany ran by Germans instead of retarded violent muslims, "evil" "genocidal" white nationalism. We will never listen to what you ethnics have to say because you fail to convince us that you care about our existence at all, you only feel contempt for white people and want our nations erased from the earth
Whatever little sympathy I had for the anti-immigration crowd dried up pretty quickly after realising how the world really works.
 
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@Sewer Stomper


Never said anything as such. If anything people don't hate the rich enough. Also it doesn't matter to me what the average white person or brown person thinks because everyone's minds are already under the spell of Capitalism. I'm just here to watch the material reality unfold and the dialectic play out, meanwhile pointing out the fundamental issues with our current world.


Whatever little sympathy I had for the anti-immigration crowd dried up pretty quickly after realising how the world really works.
you are retarded the world is under the spell of jews not capitalism wont even answer me weather not communism is a jewish ideology because you know it is and you bow down to your Jewish masters good little goy.
 
wont even answer me weather not communism is a jewish ideology because you know it is
Alright define your terms. What even is a "jewish ideology" according to you
 
And how is communism created by jews and benefits jews may I ask?
marx was a jew and lets just take an example of the first communist country the soviet union most of its leaders were jews and than they used communism to kill millions of white russians.
 
No he wasn't.

Proof?

Proof?
literally go search it up around 80% percent of early soviet union leaders were Jewish such as Lenin lean Trotsky even Putin has said that this is true. how can you say Marx wasn't a jew his parents literally were lol. so your saying the communists never starved or killed millions of Russians or Ukrainians like the Holodomor or many instances where they burned churches and killed priests but never synagogue's.
 
No he wasn't.
Screenshot 20260124 023411

Screenshot 20260124 024033
Screenshot 20260124 024651

Screenshot 20260124 024956
 
Unless commie theory can put foids back at the bottom of the social ladder and fix our decay it remains troonshit
 
literally go search it up around 80% percent of early soviet union leaders were Jewish such as Lenin lean Trotsky even Putin has said that this is true.
Of the three names mentioned here none of them have a proven history of practicing Judaism and only one was born in a definitively jewish household. And one is not even a commie.

Marx wasn't a jew his parents literally were lol.
Only his dad was born jewish and later converted to Christianity.
so your saying the communists never starved or killed millions of Russians or Ukrainians like the Holodomor or many instances where they burned churches and killed priests but never synagogue's.
I highly doubt the deaths mentioned here were intentional, especially as an attempt to particularly target "white Russians". Nothing like the Nazi holocaust of Jews which was a deliberate and intentional attempt to kill. And for burning churches but not synagogues, I'm gonna need proof
 
So a Christian.

Another Christian then.

Someone who is explicitly anti Israel (and also not jewish probably)
I didn't know famines are deliberate attempts to "kill white Russians". Would remember to apply that logic to every famine ever in Russian history, of which there are many
 

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