Early Turkish history: Rise of the Ottomans, identity and culture.

[ReconElement]

Trust me its good the Ottomans lost. The fall of the Ottoman empire was a total disaster that led to many genocides. Iran would be in the same spot. The Ottomans could never hold Anatolia, former byzantine lands and Persia at the same time. The ottomans could barely hold Hungary. A country at their doorstep.

Iran would fall into another extremist state I believe. Fueled by anti sunism. They'd be shia again.

True, conquering Iran is not easy, especially if its power centre lies in Iran proper, the both times Iran lost is when Persian power centres lied in Iraqi plains and not in Iran proper for example the Arab conquest of Sassanid Persia and Alexandrian conquest of Achemenid Persia, unless at the hands of the Turkic hordes aka the Huns etc

 

[Balikesir]

True, conquering Iran is not easy, especially if its power centre lies in Iran proper, the both times Iran lost is when Persian power centres lied in Iraqi plains and not in Iran proper for example the Arab conquest of Sassanid Persia and Alexandrian conquest of Achemenid Persia, unless at the hands of the Turkic hordes

You would have to choose your power base. Either Constantinople and former Byzantine lands or Iran. You can't hold both. The Romans couldn't either.

Ottomans already had many problems with Arab peoples. They didn't really control Egypt. Or very weak control. It was ruled by the mamluks who had joined the Ottoman court. After it was revealed the mamluks plotted against the ottomans they were executed.

Later an Albanian took over and used the instability to his advantage. Creating the basis for modern Egypt. Mehmed Ali Pasha was his name.

Muhammad Ali of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ReconElement]

You would have to choose your power base. Either Constantinople and former Byzantine lands or Iran. You can't hold both. The Romans couldn't either.

Ottomans already had many problems with Arab peoples. They didn't really control Egypt. Or very weak control. It was ruled by the mamluks who had joined the Ottoman court. After it was revealed the mamluks plotted against the ottomans they were executed.

Later an Albanian took over and used the instability to his advantage. Creating the basis for modern Egypt. Mehmed Ali Pasha was his name.

Yea people ignore it's not the steppes, in sedentary civilisations it's a game of power centres, there are only a few power centres in the world meaning they're fertile enough to sustain good manpower or populations and also have enough iron ore and timber to sustain an iron age civilisation and should be also defensible even modern historians ignore this equation

 

[ReconElement]

You would have to choose your power base. Either Constantinople and former Byzantine lands or Iran. You can't hold both. The Romans couldn't either.

Ottomans already had many problems with Arab peoples. They didn't really control Egypt. Or very weak control. It was ruled by the mamluks who had joined the Ottoman court. After it was revealed the mamluks plotted against the ottomans they were executed.

Later an Albanian took over and used the instability to his advantage. Creating the basis for modern Egypt. Mehmed Ali Pasha was his name.

Muhammad Ali of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yea, it's not like industrial age where your industrial night defines how brutally you can outmatch your less industrialised enemies by sheer means of production of armaments and mobilising men

 

[ReconElement]

Nice summary.

I believe it was Peter the Great who left a message for each Russian Tsar after him. The note said "Take Constantinople". Paraphrasing here.

I think its very interesting that Russia claimed it's third Rome. Slavic people generally were focused on the Byzantines.

Serbia is a good example of this. They adopted their coat of arms from the Byzantines as well.

Bulgaria has a long history of trying to become Byzantine as well. Bulgarians were promised the Byzantine crown, but were betrayed. Their Tsar went mad after this.

Kaloyan of Bulgaria - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I think Russia did a good job at capitalizing on their opportunities. Russia wasn't seen as a friend to Europe, so Peter toured European states, learning of their culture and traditions, he managed to get the Habsburg Austrians on board in his war against the Ottomans, which legitimized Russia as a European power. Seeing Austrians ally with them.

Russia liberating the Balkans from the Ottomans was another smart move that endeared them to the Balkan Slavic populace, making Russia a defender of the Slavic orthodox people. The Ottomans had to officially recognize them as this. It was the western Europeans, who grew weary of Russia and started plotting against them.

I find it fascinating how the Ottomans fell like the Byzantines did. The ottomans tried their hardest to be Byzantine successors and in the end, failed like them.

The once great Ottoman Empire which was pretty progressive for its time, had turned into a backwater rumpstate. They were rapidly losing lands, they barely had any funds and were attacked from all sides. The once mighty Jannisarries were now the new Praetorian guards, who held the Empire hostage and decided who may sit on the throne. The Ottoman reforms caused more chaos than peace and in the end the Ottomans lost everything and were expelled from Anatolia. (The Osmanoglu dynasty was exiled, but in the 70s that exile was lifted)

The Ottomans in their final stages committed atrocities against entire population who were regarded as honorable and loyal by the state. Armenians.

That backfired massively because nowadays the former armenian regions are full of Kurds who commit terrorism. (The issue is more nuanced but has more to do with Atatürk than the ottomans)

An interesting note is, much like the Byzantines, the Ottomans tried to westernize, which pissed off the populations. Old ottomans used to wear big white round hats such as these and baggy clothing


View: https://imgur.com/a/ni0qFJu


In their westernization process they copied the German uniforms (German officers came and trained the Ottoman troops, which pissed off the population again, since Islam looks down on Christians as "gavurs", but now these gavurs are invited to teach us) and used Byzantine Headwear to replace the big hats.

Ottomans used "The Fez" as its commonly referred to.


View: https://imgur.com/a/ChKiJXz


The similarities between the Ottomans and the Byzantines is quiet karmic. They rose upon the ashes of the Byzantines, and fell like them.

Man quite a fascinating read, the Turkic barbarian hordes really became Romans and died like Roman Byzantines with the same kinds of troubles jfl, it's so karmic lol

 

[Balikesir]

Man quite a fascinating read, the Turkic barbarian hordes really became Romans and died like Roman Byzantines with the same kinds of troubles jfl, it's so karmic lol

It is.

Another fascinating aspect is that Austria and the Ottomans fell as allies.

For hundreds of years Austria and the Ottomans fought tooth and nails. Both of them fell as allies. Russia lost its empire in the same war. Everyone fell. World War 1 is one of the most beautiful tragedies in all of history.

We look back at ancient Persia, ancient Greece and read myths about their wars. In thousand years they will do the same with world War 1 because there's a lot of these karmic moments.

Germany sent Lenin to destabilize Russia, leading to the rise of the Soviet union and the destruction of Germany in ww2. the Great war was like a Greek tragedy.