Why do people confuse free will with maximal autonomy ?

[ryhan]

Free will just means you have control of your own life it is you driving the wheel not some other person free will is not you choosing your birth where you were born into or anything like that it is not some mystical spark that gives you superpowers it just is the idea that you have control over the life you are living that is not to say your opinion can't be influenced but that doesn't mean the anticdeant caused you to make a choice

 

[tulasdanslos]

That's why Sam Harris is low IQ. However, I still fall between either determinism or quantum randomness, meaning that free will is impossible either way.

 

[Deleted member 18214]

I don't know man

 

[Deleted member 19858]

The only way to have true freedom is by anarchy

 

[ryhan]

That's why Sam Harris is low IQ. However, I still fall between either determinism or quantum randomness, meaning that free will is impossible either way.

I go with indeterminism and i use the neuroplasticity argument from the quantum randomness if our universe is in deterministic it leaves room for evolution to evolve being with free will given enough time

The only way to have true freedom is by anarchy

Over for ancap cels

 

[Deleted member 21504]

Forest Gump IQ

 

[ryhan]

Forest Gump IQ

Have never watched that movie never will

 

[Deleted member 21504]

if our universe is in deterministic it leaves room for evolution to evolve being with free will

Have never watched that movie never will

Lucky you

 

[ryhan]

Lucky you

Cope if their is a indetermined universe entropy and complexity can work together to create being which can create free will through evolution alone if it was a mechanistic universe such a thing would not be possible as all the antecedents in evolution would lead to being all being lead by genetics alone but instead we don't see a mechanistic universe we see a indetermined which leaves room for free will

 

[JestER]

Basically we were all raped into existence because we never got a choice JFL

 

[ryhan]

Basically we were all raped into existence because we never got a choice JFL

Yeah it's brutal we have no control over who gives birth to us

 

[Deleted member 21504]

Cope if their is a indetermined universe entropy and complexity can work together to create being which can create free will through evolution alone if it was a mechanistic universe such a thing would not be possible as all the antecedents in evolution would lead to being all being lead by genetics alone but instead we don't see a mechanistic universe we see a indetermined which leaves room for free will

I think you should leave this sort of thing to high IQ posters that can realize that free will doesn't exist.

It is impossible to make a case 4 free will (without dishonestly spinning around, screeching, pissing yourself in fear and winning several olympic prizes in mental gymnastics.)

 

[FinnCel]

That's why Sam Harris is low IQ. However, I still fall between either determinism or quantum randomness, meaning that free will is impossible either way.

If there is no free will, then it was determined that ER went ER. He had no choice but to go ER and thus he isn't responsible for his actions.
Therefore ER did nothing wrong

 

[JestER]

ER did nothing wrong

 

[ryhan]

I think you should leave this sort of thing to high IQ posters that can realize that free will doesn't exist (without dishonestly spinning around, screeching, pissing yourself in fear and winning several olympic prizes in mental gymnastics.)

Not addressing the argument.

1 it is possible for free will in a non determined universe
2 complexity and entropy can give birth to non determined traits
3 free will has been demonstrated through neuroplasticity and rewiring of brain

C1 we have free will

 

[grondilu]

Lately the idea of free will has been confusing me quite a lot.

I used to be on the compatibilist side, where free will is mostly an illusion, but a still a pertinent concept. Now I'm more nuanced.

Compatibilists think it doesn't matter if your behavior is predetermined, as long as you can't possibly know that predetermination.

However, the problem to me is not that we are physically incapable of predicting our future, for instance as a result of insufficient knowledge of initial conditions, but that we are logically incapable to do so.

I mean, I don't think it's possible for an intelligent entity to predict its own behavior, because this behavior will depend on the prediction itself. It's a circular causality.

How then would an intelligent entity that would have enough knowledge to compute the future behave ? Would it try, get stuck in a loop and then give up, thinking : "screw this, I'll do whatever I want". If so, would that qualify as free will ?

 

[Deleted member 21504]

3 free will has been demonstrated through neuroplasticity and rewiring of brain

 

[jet112]

well it originated from western idealism and new age philosophy.
the idea that individuals can reach the height of their potential if they wish to preserver (and ultimately succeed).
they usually use bill gates as an example to success but they always fail to mention that people like bill gates would never be remembered unless they had shitload of money, and if bill was born 5 years earlier or later, microsoft would never happen because operating systems would catch up by then.

even mushrooms need good timing to bear fruit, the timing of the season, the rain, the humidity, the altitude, the wind.
its no different than any type of success, you control some variables, but you can't control success that's for damn sure.

 

[ryhan]

well it originated from western idealism and new age philosophy.
the idea that individuals can reach the height of their potential if they wish to preserver (and ultimately succeed).
they usually use bill gates as an example to success but they always fail to mention that people like bill gates would never be remembered unless they had shitload of money, and if bill was born 5 years earlier or later, microsoft would never happen because operating systems would catch up by then.

even mushrooms need good timing to bear fruit, the timing of the season, the rain, the humidity, the altitude, the wind.
its no different than any type of success, you control some variables, but you can't control success that's for damn sure.

Again that's maximal autonomy not free will learn the difference free will does not say you will become like bill gates if you only you worked harder free will merely says you have choice over the actions you choose that's it

How is that not free will if you yourself are rewiring it when you learn something ?

Lately the idea of free will has been confusing me quite a lot.

I used to be on the compatibilist side, where free will is mostly an illusion, but a still a pertinent concept. Now I'm more nuanced.

Compatibilists think it doesn't matter if your behavior is predetermined, as long as you can't possibly know that predetermination.

However, the problem to me is not that we are physically incapable of predicting our future, for instance as a result of insufficient knowledge of initial conditions, but that we are logically incapable to do so.

I mean, I don't think it's possible for an intelligent entity to predict its own behavior, because this behavior will depend on the prediction itself. It's a circular causality.

How then would an intelligent entity that would have enough knowledge to compute the future behave ? Would it try, get stuck in a loop and then give up, thinking : "screw this, I'll do whatever I want". If so, would that qualify as free will ?

''I used to be on the compatibilist side, where free will is mostly an illusion, but a still a pertinent concept. Now I'm more nuanced.

Compatibilists think it doesn't matter if your behavior is predetermined, as long as you can't possibly know that predetermination.''

Then it's a soft leading to fatalism it really just is determinism under a different name if you had no free will in that action you had no free will to begin with kind of reminds me of pragmatism


''However, the problem to me is not that we are physically incapable of predicting our future, for instance as a result of insufficient knowledge of initial conditions, but that we are logically incapable to do so.''

But then their rebuttal would be would be hidden variables if we could know the starting behaviour of you know we could predict where most likely you will be in 10 years problem with that it's literally impossible to guess cause human are known to change their thoughts over time.

''I mean, I don't think it's possible for an intelligent entity to predict its own behavior, because this behavior will depend on the prediction itself. It's a circular causality.''

I don't think that's the argument of most determinists though to be fair to them their argument seems to even though a universe is random it is still calculable from the starting innational conditions and each lead to your action here and know.

''How then would an intelligent entity that would have enough knowledge to compute the future behave ? Would it try, get stuck in a loop and then give up, thinking : "screw this, I'll do whatever I want". If so, would that qualify as free will ?''

I guess that would most likely happen and yes that would qualify as 1 trait of free will