Which civilization shows the largest gap between its highest moment and where it is now?

[Knajjd]

I’ve been thinking about how civilizations rise and fall.

Suppose we define a civilization’s “peak” as its greatest achievement in one or more of the following domains:

• Metaphysical–Philosophical Insight
• Scientific Understanding of Nature
• Mathematical Abstraction
• Technological Transformation
• Political and Institutional Organization
• Artistic and Cultural Expression
• Ethical and Spiritual Traditions
• Material Prosperity and Mass Living Standards

For discussion, here are some civilizations/empires people could consider:

• Roman Empire
• British Empire
• United States
• Indian Civilization
• Chinese Civilization
• Islamic Civilization / Abbasid Caliphate
• Ancient Greek Civilization
• Ottoman Empire
• Persian Civilization
• Mongol Empire
• Spanish Empire
• Portuguese Empire
• French Empire
• Japanese Civilization
• Byzantine Empire

Feel free to add others if relevant.

Using this framework:

1. What do you think was the peak achievement of different civilizations?
2. Which civilization has diverged the most from its peak when compared to its present-day condition?


Example:

United States

Possible peak domain: Material Prosperity and Mass Living Standards

Many people consider the 1950s–1960s a “golden age” in the United States. A single industrial wage could often support a household, buy a home, own a car, and provide a comfortable middle-class life.

Present condition:
The U.S. is still a powerful and wealthy country, but the economic structure has changed significantly. Manufacturing is a smaller part of the economy, and many households require two incomes to reach the same standard of living.

So the question becomes: which civilization shows the largest gap between its historical peak and its present condition?

 

[Giracel]

In light of recent events, Persian definitely. Used to be a literal world power, now is an islamized shell of its former glory getting bombed to shit by the Western forces.

 

[ogercel]

Greek Civilisations

 

[Knajjd]

In light of recent events, Persian definitely. Used to be a literal world power, now is an islamized shell of its former glory getting bombed to shit by the Western forces.

It's a strong candidate. It used to have a massive land mass, innovations in administration, great achievements in art and literature. The word "Persia" used to mean mystery and wonder.

 

[Knajjd]

Greek Civilisations

What do you consider their peak contribution? Neo-platonism? Architecture? Mathematics? Ancient Greece is definitely another strong candidate.

 

[Maikowski]

Europe peaked in 1500

 

[AsiaCel]

China.

Poorer than many African countries.

Now look where it is now.

 

[Knajjd]

Europe peaked in 1500

Can you define the drop between peak 1500 and it's current state? Was it the Renaissance? If so I agree, that is a huge drop between then and now.

 

[Knajjd]

China.

Poorer than many African countries.

Now look where it is now.

So you think China has had no drop? It's progressed, not regressed.

I think China had many peaks in the past. The Song Dynasty is often considered as the most advanced society on earth for around 300 years.

Now China is focused on material wealth. Seems like a major regression to me.

 

[ogercel]

What do you consider their peak contribution? Neo-platonism? Architecture? Mathematics? Ancient Greece is definitely another strong candidate.

Everything, back then they set a new standard for their time and enabled other civilisation to carry the torch, modern greeks are lazy unhealthy ignorant greedy untrustworthy etc etc etc

 

[ogercel]

The Song Dynasty

Thats when jews first invented derivatives and stock options lmao

 

[BasedGoyslopReviews]

i say british empire

 

[Knajjd]

Everything, back then they set a new standard for their time and enabled other civilisation to carry the torch, modern greeks are lazy unhealthy ignorant greedy untrustworthy etc etc etc

I agree. It's a huge drop from then to now. The mind veers away from the enormity of the gap. What happened?

 

[Knajjd]

i say british empire

Do you mean to say it's peak was the Industrial Revolution? That was a radical transformation that effected the entire globe. This is another very strong candidate. It's a shock to think how such empires can collapse.

But do you think industrial power is the peak of human achievement? What about philosophy or mathematics or the nuclear family?

 

[RealSchizo]

Europe peaked in 1500

That is simply untrue. Europe peaked in B.C. with Ancient Greece and Rome although the early Roman republic was corrupt as shit, gruesome and violent.
Ancient Greeks contributed to the European renaissance once they regained their knowledge that had been lost during the dark ages.

 

[Knajjd]

Thats when jews first invented derivatives and stock options lmao

Interesting. Everyday something new to learn. The Chinese were definitely a refined and thoughtful people in those days and had many original ideas.

Today, I'm not so sure. It all seems to be about following the Americans.

 

[cathuluelitist]

I’ve been thinking about how civilizations rise and fall.

Suppose we define a civilization’s “peak” as its greatest achievement in one or more of the following domains:

• Metaphysical–Philosophical Insight
• Scientific Understanding of Nature
• Mathematical Abstraction
• Technological Transformation
• Political and Institutional Organization
• Artistic and Cultural Expression
• Ethical and Spiritual Traditions
• Material Prosperity and Mass Living Standards

For discussion, here are some civilizations/empires people could consider:

• Roman Empire
• British Empire
• United States
• Indian Civilization
• Chinese Civilization
• Islamic Civilization / Abbasid Caliphate
• Ancient Greek Civilization
• Ottoman Empire
• Persian Civilization
• Mongol Empire
• Spanish Empire
• Portuguese Empire
• French Empire
• Japanese Civilization
• Byzantine Empire

Feel free to add others if relevant.

Using this framework:

1. What do you think was the peak achievement of different civilizations?
2. Which civilization has diverged the most from its peak when compared to its present-day condition?


Example:

United States

Possible peak domain: Material Prosperity and Mass Living Standards

Many people consider the 1950s–1960s a “golden age” in the United States. A single industrial wage could often support a household, buy a home, own a car, and provide a comfortable middle-class life.

View attachment 1692882

Present condition:
The U.S. is still a powerful and wealthy country, but the economic structure has changed significantly. Manufacturing is a smaller part of the economy, and many households require two incomes to reach the same standard of living.

View attachment 1692883

So the question becomes: which civilization shows the largest gap between its historical peak and its present condition?

Western Christian civilization, with the West reaching its peak during the Gothic period, the West is at the Winter of their culture right now. If you want a specfic Kultur, I would say Rome where they went from the era of the mos maiorum to whatever is left of it now.

 

[PhineasSpear]

Maybe France.

 

[Knajjd]

That is simply untrue. Europe peaked in B.C. with Ancient Greece and Rome although the early Roman republic was corrupt as shit, gruesome and violent.
Ancient Greeks contributed to the European renaissance once they regained their knowledge that had been lost during the dark ages.

No one can deny the Glory of Ancient Greece but compare that with it's current state. Do you think it has fallen from grace the most? Once it was the source of wonderful ideas and now well it doesn't seem to do much at all compared to it's past.

I think considering it's past to it's current state it has to be a strong contender for the empire with the deepest loss.

 

[Deleted Member 8090]

England. They used to rule the world, now they are genociding their own nation out of existence so their beloved Muslim invaders can conquer them and take everything they had. Reduced from the most powerful nation ruling the globe to a tiny insignificant shithole that is soon to be a third world country.

Their ancestors would have their heads if they found out illegal alien niggers are allowed to chop up children and walk free without deportation but white men can't pray to Christ without getting arrested.

 

[Knajjd]

Western Christian civilization, with the West reaching its peak during the Gothic period, the West is at the Winter of their culture right now. If you want a specfic Kultur, I would say Rome where they went from the era of the mos maiorum to whatever is left of it now.

I tend to agree about Christianity. It helped developed education, music, literature and science which in the end turned it's back on that which gave it life. The Holy Roman Empire is long gone and I think only parts of eastern Germany still hold on to some of its principals.

Rome though was more of a civilisation than a culture and many of it's rules and laws are still widely used. In fact much of modern gov't administration is based on Roman Law so perhaps it has not dropped so much from it's peak.

 

[AutistSupremacist]

Mali.

Once a pillar of education and wealth and now a war torn shithole full of islamic extremists

 

[Knajjd]

Mali.

Once a pillar of education and wealth and now a war torn shithole full of islamic extremists

An interesting candidate.

I'm sorry to say I had never heard of the Mali Empire. I've just read up on it now and never realised it had such wealth and culture. Now it has many challenges.

What happened? Very sad. It definitely has a large peak to present gap.

Still would you say it had achieved what you would considered the most highest goal of humanity? Wealth is important and peace too of course but is there anything else beyond that?

Which Empire might have achieved such a pinnacle and then let it fall from it's grasp?

 

[Knajjd]

Maybe France.

Like the British Empire, the French Empire had a large drop from its peak to present day. It's still an important state but beyond it's influence within the EU and being a nuclear power it's not achieved anything like it did in the past.

Paris is full of tourists walking around the ghosts of past glories. Ah France, when will she rise again and make our lives better ! What happened to the Belle Epoque?

Another prime candidate with a huge miserable drop from it's peak.

 

[AsiaCel]

So you think China has had no drop? It's progressed, not regressed.

I think China had many peaks in the past. The Song Dynasty is often considered as the most advanced society on earth for around 300 years.

Now China is focused on material wealth. Seems like a major regression to me.

Mao era.

 

[Knajjd]

Mao era.

Are you saying the Mao era was a peak or trough for China? On balance, I think it did more harm than good. It went to far and destroyed too much ancient culture. I think China is trying to return to many of it's roots now but what do I know I've never lived there. I would like to visit one day but that's unlikely unless I win the lottery (which I don't play).

Strange China seems to prefer strong Emperors. Even today they don't seem to have moved away from their past that much. Perhaps the peak-to-current drop is not that high.

 

[RealSchizo]

No one can deny the Glory of Ancient Greece but compare that with it's current state. Do you think it has fallen from grace the most?

Every single empire is basically nothing compared to what modern society has tbh. We are simply just too advanced and such comfort has never been seen before.

The British Empire has fallen from grace the most. Once an empire that has spread their language to over 26 countries which is a massive success to a liberal shithole and less free than some third world countries, getting arrested for expressing your opinion, The capital's mayor being of non-anglo descent, a big percentage of the ethnics living off welfare and not contributing shit while the anglo man is basically funding his extinction.

 

[underballer]

Every single empire is basically nothing compared to what modern society has tbh. We are simply just too advanced and such comfort has never been seen before.

The British Empire has fallen from grace the most. Once an empire that has spread their language to over 26 countries which is a massive success to a liberal shithole and less free than some third world countries, getting arrested for expressing your opinion, The capital's mayor being of non-anglo descent, a big percentage of the ethnics living off welfare and not contributing shit while the anglo man is basically funding his extinction.

Jfl

 

[Blackpill Monk]

China.

Poorer than many African countries.

Now look where it is now.

China was already an civilizational power

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Greco-Roman Empire and British Empire was one of the greatest and remarkable achievement in the history of mankind

 

[VλREN]

Britain

 

[LeFrenchCel]

Mongolia

 

[kіng]

I'd say India, they went from one of the first irrigation and plumbing systems in the IVC to current-day mass-pollution and open defecation

 

[yeetbender_]

In light of recent events, Persian definitely. Used to be a literal world power, now is an islamized shell of its former glory getting bombed to shit by the Western forces.