The complexity of Marx

[Freixel]

I am always intrigued and disturbed by the figure of Marx...

Why is he criticizing and pointing fingers at his own people? Is it because his idealism was superior to his tribal sense? Is it because he doesn't care about destroying his own people if it means ending capitalism?

Was he an outcast, someone expelled from Judaism itself?

Was he a good guy after all? ...like Bobby Fischer

The reality is more complex than the NS on the internet would have you believe.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I am always intrigued and disturbed by the figure of Marx...

Why is he criticizing and pointing fingers at his own people? Is it because his idealism was superior to his tribal sense? Is it because he doesn't care about destroying his own people if it means ending capitalism?

Was he an outcast, someone expelled from Judaism itself?

Was he a good guy after all? ...like Bobby Fischer

The reality is more complex than the NS on the internet would have you believe.

He was an ethnic Jew, but as far as I know he was raised in a Lutheran environment. He literally worked at a regular job for only two weeks as a journalist for some newspaper, until he was kicked out of there for lazy. Then he just lived and wrote his works, living on the money of his friend Engels, the manufacturer. He also hated Russia for actively suppressing the revolutions in 1848 and actively supported the coalition of France, the Ottomans, and Britain against Russia.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I am always intrigued and disturbed by the figure of Marx...

Why is he criticizing and pointing fingers at his own people? Is it because his idealism was superior to his tribal sense? Is it because he doesn't care about destroying his own people if it means ending capitalism?

Was he an outcast, someone expelled from Judaism itself?

Was he a good guy after all? ...like Bobby Fischer

The reality is more complex than the NS on the internet would have you believe.

According to Marx, Russia is "... the bulwark of world reaction and a threat to free humanity, is the only reason for the existence of militarism in Europe." "Russia is the last reserve and backbone of united despotism in Europe and all the enemies of the communist revolution are concentrated in Russia..." But Marx's geopolitical goal is even more global.: "Russia must be pushed back to the borders of Asia..." The author regrets that Napoleon failed to do this and gives Britain a special role in the future war: "England has the opportunity to strike Russia in its most vulnerable place. Not to mention the fact that she can force the Swedes to conquer Finland back, St. Petersburg and Odessa are open to her fleet... Without St. Petersburg and Odessa, Russia is a giant with severed hands"

 

[Freixel]

He was an ethnic Jew, but as far as I know he was raised in a Lutheran environment. He literally worked at a regular job for only two weeks as a journalist for some newspaper, until he was kicked out of there for lazy. Then he just lived and wrote his works, living on the money of his friend Engels, the manufacturer. He also hated Russia for actively suppressing the revolutions in 1848 and actively supported the coalition of France, the Ottomans, and Britain against Russia.

Yes, I know the story that he works little and so on, but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy, we have many cels who are neets around here, Marx is a guy who dedicated his life to intellectual work

I want to know what led him to point out the Jew as the master of capitalism in his writing "On the Jewish Question"

Did he see it as the inevitable outcome of questioning the system to its ultimate consequences?

He literally wrote that "If Judaism ends, capitalism ends." I don't know, I see a guy (angry?) against his own ethnicity

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

Yes, I know the story that he works little and so on, but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy, we have many cels who are neets around here, Marx is a guy who dedicated his life to intellectual work

I want to know what led him to point out the Jew as the master of capitalism in his writing "On the Jewish Question"

Did he see it as the inevitable outcome of questioning the system to its ultimate consequences?

He literally wrote that "If Judaism ends, capitalism ends." I don't know, I see a guy (angry?) against his own ethnicity

The Jews had a monopoly on usury since the Middle Ages. And usury is the essence of any capitalism - if you want to open a bakery or a store, you need money to make your first investments - you can borrow it from a lender to pay him off later. If there are no creditors, there are no small businesses. Both Islam and Christianity equally considered giving money in credits to their fellow believers to be a grave sin, so this role was given to Jews. Consequently, over the centuries, Jews have been able to become aces in the world of banks, loans, etc.

 

[Freixel]

The Jews had a monopoly on usury since the Middle Ages. And usury is the essence of any capitalism - if you want to open a bakery or a store, you need money to make your first investments - you can borrow it from a lender to pay him off later. If there are no creditors, there are no small businesses. Both Islam and Christianity equally considered giving money in credits to their fellow believers to be a grave sin, so this role was given to Jews. Consequently, over the centuries, Jews have been able to become aces in the world of banks, loans, etc.

I know the power of the Jews, what I want to know is why Marx is pointing them out, this contradicts the conspiracy theory that Marxism is on the side of the world elites, rather it seems the opposite in its origin

Perhaps this is what I should have clarified: If Marx were part of the Jewish conspiracy of world domination he would not have pointed them out.

That's why I say maybe he was a good guy, because he stood on the side of truth even if it meant pointing fingers at the Jews themselves.

The most likely thing is that Marxism was legitimate in its origin but has been co-opted and distorted by the same global forces it fought.

I can imagine Hitler and Marx chatting at a table and agreeing that they must end Judaism to end capitalism.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I know the power of the Jews, what I want to know is why Marx is pointing them out, this contradicts the conspiracy theory that Marxism is on the side of the world elites, rather it seems the opposite in its origin

Perhaps this is what I should have clarified: If Marx were part of the Jewish conspiracy of world domination he would not have pointed them out.

That's why I say maybe he was a good guy, because he stood on the side of truth even if it meant pointing fingers at the Jews themselves.

The most likely thing is that Marxism was legitimate in its origin but has been co-opted and distorted by the same global forces it fought.

I can imagine Hitler and Marx chatting at a table and agreeing that they must end Judaism to end capitalism.

Marx's ideology divided people not into nations, but into classes - those who exploit others (the Bourgeoisie) and those who are exploited (the Proletariat) That is, it was a kind of protoglobalism. It also meant that for a communist, workers of other nationalities should be closer than their own bourgeoisie. That is, the division of people into classes implies the blurring of borders between nationalities, which, according to the Nazis, was part of making everyone rootless cosmopolitans and killing the German people and their national spirit. Also, according to the Nazis, the only ones who will benefit from internationalism are Jews, because now they will be able to live peacefully among other peoples.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I know the power of the Jews, what I want to know is why Marx is pointing them out, this contradicts the conspiracy theory that Marxism is on the side of the world elites, rather it seems the opposite in its origin

Perhaps this is what I should have clarified: If Marx were part of the Jewish conspiracy of world domination he would not have pointed them out.

That's why I say maybe he was a good guy, because he stood on the side of truth even if it meant pointing fingers at the Jews themselves.

The most likely thing is that Marxism was legitimate in its origin but has been co-opted and distorted by the same global forces it fought.

I can imagine Hitler and Marx chatting at a table and agreeing that they must end Judaism to end capitalism.

Simply put, the fact that the creator of communism was a Jew and the fact that the Bolshevik revolutionaries in Russia were also mainly Jews descended into the logical chain of the fact that communism was beneficial to Jews, since under the tsar Jews could not live outside the pale of settlement, could not become officers in the army or officials, they could be smashed and don't get any punishment each. To understand the theories of Judeo-Bolshevism, it is necessary to understand the context of the October Revolution and the conflict between Tsar Nicholas 2 and the Jews.

 

[Freixel]

Marx's ideology divided people not into nations, but into classes - those who exploit others (the Bourgeoisie) and those who are exploited (the Proletariat) That is, it was a kind of protoglobalism. It also meant that for a communist, workers of other nationalities should be closer than their own bourgeoisie. That is, the division of people into classes implies the blurring of borders between nationalities, which, according to the Nazis, was part of making everyone rootless cosmopolitans and killing the German people and their national spirit. Also, according to the Nazis, the only ones who will benefit from internationalism are Jews, because now they will be able to live peacefully among other peoples.

Anyway, I read the communist manifesto and in one section it says something like "The workers do not have a country, they cannot possess something that was never theirs in the first place. That is why the proletariat must conquer political power and achieve its constituency in National Class, this class is still National, but in no way in a bourgeois way"

Marx seems to be endorsing Socialism + Nationalism in this passage, which I actually agree with.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

Anyway, I read the communist manifesto and in one section it says something like "The workers do not have a country, they cannot possess something that was never theirs in the first place. That is why the proletariat must conquer political power and achieve its constituency in National Class, this class is still National, but in no way in a bourgeois way"

Marx seems to be endorsing Socialism + Nationalism in this passage, which I actually agree with.

Marx was a cultured Lutheran, not a cultured Jew. Therefore, he could criticize Jews, since they were strangers to him.

 

[Freixel]

Simply put, the fact that the creator of communism was a Jew and the fact that the Bolshevik revolutionaries in Russia were also mainly Jews descended into the logical chain of the fact that communism was beneficial to Jews, since under the tsar Jews could not live outside the pale of settlement, could not become officers in the army or officials, they could be smashed and don't get any punishment each. To understand the theories of Judeo-Bolshevism, it is necessary to understand the context of the October Revolution and the conflict between Tsar Nicholas 2 and the Jews.

But that is an a posteriori conclusion. I am trying to separate Marx the individual and his psychology from the events of the Russian Revolution, that is why I say that perhaps it was a co-opted and corrupted movement, perhaps it was deactivated from within, Marxism was not supposed to be beneficial to the Jews in a principle, even if it were internationalist.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

But that is an a posteriori conclusion. I am trying to separate Marx the individual and his psychology from the events of the Russian Revolution, that is why I say that perhaps it was a co-opted and corrupted movement, perhaps it was deactivated from within, Marxism was not supposed to be beneficial to the Jews in a principle, even if it were internationalist.

Yes, but the fact that during the regime change in Russia from the tsarist monarchy to a communist dictatorship, only Jews won. Now a Jew could be anyone from a general in the army or the NKVD to a top party official. Until now, Jews predominate in the Russian creative elite, both singers and actors.

 

[Freixel]

Yes, but the fact that during the regime change in Russia from the tsarist monarchy to a cosmetic dictatorship, only Jews won. Now a Jew could be anyone from a general in the army or the NKVD to a top party official. Until now, Jews predominate in the Russian creative elite, both singers and actors.

And what would Marx himself think when he saw that it was the Jews who gained power in Russia after the October Revolution?

Would he support them? Or would he criticize them? Would he play dumb and not say anything? Or would he point them out again? taking into account that he wrote "The Jewish Question"

I know you can't know... but I'm trying to piece together the real person in my head.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

And what would Marx himself think when he saw that it was the Jews who gained power in Russia after the October Revolution?

Would he support them? Or would he criticize them? Would he play dumb and not say anything? Or would he point them out again? taking into account that he wrote "The Jewish Question"

I know you can't know... but I'm trying to piece together the real person in my head.

I do not know, perhaps he would have hated that his ideology was the first to win in his most hated country. Marx literally wanted to destroy Russia and drive it out of Europe. In a sense, Hitler and Marx had the same hatred of Russia.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

And what would Marx himself think when he saw that it was the Jews who gained power in Russia after the October Revolution?

Would he support them? Or would he criticize them? Would he play dumb and not say anything? Or would he point them out again? taking into account that he wrote "The Jewish Question"

I know you can't know... but I'm trying to piece together the real person in my head.

He also considered Russians Mongols, and Russian Empire itself the heir to the Mongol empire of Genghis Khan

 

[Freixel]

He also considered Russians Mongols, and Russian Empire itself the heir to the Mongol empire of Genghis Khan

Yes, just as Hitler considered the Slavs "mongoloid subhumans"

I don't agree with that part

What I think I see is that Marx would not be happy for his ideology to be used by the global jew world elites for their purposes, as that was not the original objective but rather the opposite.

 

[Freixel]

So what I take from this thread: Marx did not see himself as Jewish because he was raised as a Lutheran... which is strange because I'm sure he must have been aware that his original surname Mordechai was Hebrew.

I don't think he was ignorant of his ethnic origins, but he nonetheless stood against capitalist Jewish power, which leads to the conclusion that he never wanted Marxism to be used for the benefit of the Jews. Neither in the subsequent Russian revolution nor in the degenerate universities of the modern West...

I am trying to rescue Marx from all this historical and conspiratorial interweaving originating in the third position.

If original Marxism can be rescued for non-Jewish populations, then it is a tool in favor of my side.

 

[SoycuckGodOfReddit]

it's similar to jesus, a jew who was outcast from society and started preaching against common jewish beliefs and practices

the problem with these renegade jews is that their fundamental thought-process is still basically jewish, so they will combine true criticisms of the jews with obfuscation and lies

 

[earming]

it's similar to jesus, a jew who was outcast from society and started preaching against common jewish beliefs and practices

the problem with these renegade jews is that their fundamental thought-process is still basically jewish, so they will combine true criticisms of the jews with obfuscation and lies

this.. despite him being raised in a lutheran environment he was still biologically jewish, and as such valued a globalist world where jews could thrive, and the destruction of russia which was repressing the jews

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

this.. despite him being raised in a lutheran environment he was still biologically jewish, and as such valued a globalist world where jews could thrive, and the destruction of russia which was repressing the jews

Yes, it is incredibly ironic that the first communist state in the world was the country that Marx hated the most.

 

[earming]

Yes, it is incredibly ironic that the first communist state in the world was the country that Marx hated the most.

Stalin was the only based communist for purging the Jews and making communism national.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

Stalin was the only based communist for purging the Jews and making communism national.

Yes, Stalin was more like a red tsar. He brought back nationalism, patriotic films about Alexander Nevsky, Suvorov, Kutuzov, etc. were shot during his time. He sent non-Russian ethnic groups to Central Asia to give this land to the Russians.

 

[earming]

Yes, Stalin was more like a red tsar. He brought back nationalism, patriotic films about Alexander Nevsky, Suvorov, Kutuzov, etc. were shot during his time. He sent non-Russian ethnic groups to Central Asia to give this land to the Russians.

Alexander Nevsky was a great film, have you watched it? i liked the soundtrack by Prokofiev.
Stalinism and National Socialism weren't really that different in that regard, with only selectively sanctioning national history to benefit their ideology

 

[SoycuckGodOfReddit]

Yes, it is incredibly ironic that the first communist state in the world was the country that Marx hated the most.

I believe that Marx did later change his tune on Russia and suggest that the Russian peasant mir could form the basis of a communist re-organization of society after a revolution

of course all of this was idealistic nonsense, and the Russians just replaced the Tsar with another despotic regime because they're Slavs and that's how they function

just like marx was fixated on the economy because he was a jew

ultimately, I think that most of marxism can be summed up as diluted, over-elaborate antisemitism

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

Alexander Nevsky was a great film, have you watched it? i liked the soundtrack by Prokofiev.
Stalinism and National Socialism weren't really that different in that regard, with only selectively sanctioning national history to benefit their ideology

Yes, I watched it, it's perfect propaganda. Although Alexander Nevsky had nothing to do with communism. The Nazis made a film about Frederick the Great 2, although he also had nothing to do with national Socialism.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I believe that Marx did later change his tune on Russia and suggest that the Russian peasant mir could form the basis of a communist re-organization of society after a revolution

of course all of this was idealistic nonsense, and the Russians just replaced the Tsar with another despotic regime because they're Slavs and that's how they function

just like marx was fixated on the economy because he was a jew

ultimately, I think that most of marxism can be summed up as diluted, over-elaborate antisemitism

In fact, yes, Russia cannot function normally without despotism, be it tsarism, communism or Putinism. As soon as you give freedom to Russians, everything collapses, as it was in Russia in the 1990s, when there was maximum freedom of speech, but the country itself lay in ruins.

 

[SoycuckGodOfReddit]

noticeably, by marx's own account, the earliest pre-marx communists actually believed in something similar to marxism-rodgerism:

Finally, this movement of opposing universal private property to private property finds expression in the brutish form of opposing to marriage (certainly a form of exclusive private property) the community of women, in which a woman becomes a piece of communal and common property. It may be said that this idea of the community of women gives away the secret of this as yet completely crude and thoughtless communism. Just as woman passes from marriage to general prostitution, so the entire world of wealth (that is, of man’s objective substance) passes from the relationship of exclusive marriage with the owner of private property to a state of universal prostitution with the community... General envy constituting itself as a power is the disguise in which greed re-establishes itself and satisfies itself, only in another way. The thought of every piece of private property as such is at least turned against wealthier private property in the form of envy and the urge to reduce things to a common level, so that this envy and urge even constitute the essence of competition. Crude communism [the manuscript has: Kommunist. – Ed.] is only the culmination of this envy and of this levelling-down proceeding from the preconceived minimum.

so marxism is actually a needless tangent from the real point of communism, which includes sexual equality

marx's jewish hyper-fixation on the economy obfuscates the actual nature of communism, and therefore it is convenient for the jews to promote it

 

[earming]

I believe that Marx did later change his tune on Russia and suggest that the Russian peasant mir could form the basis of a communist re-organization of society after a revolution

I'd say it's because, as this thread's anarcho-nihilist suggested, he believed Russia was an illegitimate country of mongols ruled by germanic aristocrats who repressed a jewish population, and that if the mongols were liberated from this grasp they could instead be ruled by the jewish communist aristocrats themselves.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

I'd say it's because, as this thread's anarcho-nihilist suggested, he believed Russia was an illegitimate country of mongols ruled by germanic aristocrats who repressed a jewish population, and that if the mongols were liberated from this grasp they could instead be ruled by the jewish communist aristocrats themselves.

Yes, the civil war in Russia was fought between aristocrats from the white side, among whom there were many ethnic Germans, against them were Jewish Bolsheviks, mostly from wealthy Jewish businessmen. The Russian people were just a resource that did not solve anything, it was just a resource for the right to exploit which the Jews and the Germans fought and the Jews won.

 

[Freixel]

I believe that Marx did later change his tune on Russia and suggest that the Russian peasant mir could form the basis of a communist re-organization of society after a revolution

of course all of this was idealistic nonsense, and the Russians just replaced the Tsar with another despotic regime because they're Slavs and that's how they function

just like marx was fixated on the economy because he was a jew

ultimately, I think that most of marxism can be summed up as diluted, over-elaborate antisemitism

Understanding the argument that Marx was hyper-fixated on economics and that the extreme materialism of this ideology ends up connecting with atheism, which together gives a Jewish ideology in the end...

But I think Marx was right about a couple of things:

*The worker has no homeland or any national identity to defend when he is exploited like a slave by capitalist magnates. (This connects a lot with the Incel message in fact)

*He is speaking at a time when workers work between 12 to 16, and even 18 hours in some places, non-stop, like machines, the 19th century was a horror, a total dehumanization and exploitation of the working classes, so that he paid attention to these issues of great importance in his time

When you work 16 hours a day for a piece of bread, you have neither the time nor the energy to worry about God or your country.

I read volume 1 of Capital and what is told there is terrifying, Dantesque scenes of the social situation of workers at the beginning of the 19th century.

*He ended up pointing out the Jews as masters of capitalism, he literally wrote that the god of the Jews is Money, that society had become completely Judaized and that if Judaism disappeared, capitalism would disappear.

I don't know... maybe it was about 2 opposing factions, the Jewish capitalist magnates on the one hand and the exploited working-poor Jews on the other.

 

[SoycuckGodOfReddit]

Dantesque scenes of the social situation of workers at the beginning of the 19th century.

sure, but that was typically necessary for developing a modern capitalistic economy

hence why thr soviet union had to undergo a similar process and cruelty, with possibly more casualties due to bureaucratic incompetence

marxism itself viewed this as necessary and positive, so marx hand-wringing about it isn't meaningful.

neither the time nor the energy to worry about God or your country

patriotism and religion often thrive among the poor and peasantry, tho

because they are unintelligent savages

marx was atheistic because he came from a wealthy family, and he was not seriously working-class

promoting atheism to the low-class masses is foolish, because their atheism will not be intellectual in nature like marx's, it will only be a form of license for hedonism and licentiousness. that is what we see in modern democratic society

marxism claims to be a materialistic ideology formed from class struggle, but it's the intellectual product of two upper-class men who were well-read in hegel and passionate about german philosophical debates. it should be taken as a curiosity of german philosophy, not a political program of social change which it has no worth for

but most of marx's ideas were formed in the process of adolescent rebellion against his father and other father-figures like hegel, and expecting the result to be an operational model for revolutionizing society is foolish

 

[AsakuraHao]

communism doesn't work

 

[Freixel]

sure, but that was typically necessary for developing a modern capitalistic economy

hence why thr soviet union had to undergo a similar process and cruelty, with possibly more casualties due to bureaucratic incompetence

marxism itself viewed this as necessary and positive, so marx hand-wringing about it isn't meaningful.


patriotism and religion often thrive among the poor and peasantry, tho

because they are unintelligent savages

marx was atheistic because he came from a wealthy family, and he was not seriously working-class

promoting atheism to the low-class masses is foolish, because their atheism will not be intellectual in nature like marx's, it will only be a form of license for hedonism and licentiousness. that is what we see in modern democratic society

marxism claims to be a materialistic ideology formed from class struggle, but it's the intellectual product of two upper-class men who were well-read in hegel and passionate about german philosophical debates. it should be taken as a curiosity of german philosophy, not a political program of social change which it has no worth for

but most of marx's ideas were formed in the process of adolescent rebellion against his father and other father-figures like hegel, and expecting the result to be an operational model for revolutionizing society is foolish

But poor workers end up putting their hopes in those ideals because they are desperate, because they need a small halo of light in the darkness of their lives, that does not mean that they can start thinking seriously and deeply about theology or the development of national culture, as you said, they are not intellectuals with the time to delve into these things, they only cling to those ideals superficially like a burning nail so as not to end up killing themselves.

In any case, Marx lived before the Russian Revolution, he probably did not know that to form a modern industrial society capable of competing against capitalist societies it was necessary to go through a process of exploitation of the working classes.

This happened when Lenin took power in Russia and realized that going from an agrarian society to a socialist-industrial one in a single leap was impossible, that he had to go through a process of "passing capitalism" until the conditions were met for the socialization of the means of production.

Either he didn't think about it or he didn't give it importance, he lived in an earlier time.

I agree that promoting atheism among the normie masses is a bad idea, it only leads to cultural decomposition.

I also don't underestimate Marx for being an intellectual without a job... his ideology ended up creating gigantic revolutionary movements, and I love revolutions (personal take here), I can't do anything other than appreciate what he did. I understand that it was the manipulative Jewish Mass that won in Russia in the end, but it's not like I'm going to be empathetic to the tsars either.
The fact of being aware that Marx pointed out the Jewish problem makes me able to appreciate it, instead of dismissing him as just another conspiratorial Jew, as is done from the third position.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

communism doesn't work

Capitalism doesn't work either, although it lives longer.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

communism doesn't work

The whole of eastern Europe suffered greatly after the transition from communism to capitalism and is still suffering from emigration and extinction.

 

[turbosperg]

The Jews had a monopoly on usury since the Middle Ages. And usury is the essence of any capitalism - if you want to open a bakery or a store, you need money to make your first investments - you can borrow it from a lender to pay him off later. If there are no creditors, there are no small businesses. Both Islam and Christianity equally considered giving money in credits to their fellow believers to be a grave sin, so this role was given to Jews. Consequently, over the centuries, Jews have been able to become aces in the world of banks, loans, etc.

That's a myth. The jews would lend money with interest to rival Princes/Nobles and then instigate war between them, on the premise that the other noble house had enough money to cover their debt. And then the jews would prosper from the wars. That's pretty much the same thing that still happens today, whenever a new war breaks out there are bankers profitting.

People opened bakeries since time immemorial using parnerships, sponsorships, etc. The usury banking system was created to profit from wars and ransack the population, stealing their properties through mortgages.