Welcome to Incels.is - Involuntary Celibate Forum

Welcome! This is a forum for involuntary celibates: people who lack a significant other. Are you lonely and wish you had someone in your life? You're not alone! Join our forum and talk to people just like you.

"Cultural appropriation" being bad might be something that many on the left and right can actually agree on

Hoppipolla

Hoppipolla

hop on jj2
★★★★★
Joined
Jun 28, 2018
Posts
12,196
Online time
1d 14h

"The act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own"

The left came up with this of course but I think the right often do agree with it. That white people shouldn't get involved in rap music and black people shouldn't get involved in classical music, for example.

The horseshoe effect is totally wild isn't it, lol
 
Last edited:
What about "enrichment"?
 
black people shouldn't get involved in classical music
This is a very unfair take because Black People revolutionized music and dominated the industry way back in the 40s already
 
Over for North Monkeydonians, no more claiming the culture of others for them
 
This is a very unfair take because Black People revolutionized music and dominated the industry way back in the 40s already

I was just trying to think of a genre that white people created.
 
My own opinion on this...

I think it's nice to celebrate your own culture but I think it's a bit harsh to shame people for enjoying things from other people's cultures.

I also think it's a concept that will generally speaking appeal more to authoritarians than libertarians, regardless of whether they are on the right or left.
 
Last edited:
First I want to begin my comment by acknowledging the Phoenicians, who's unceded alphabet grants us the privilege of conversing here today.

Almost everything we do as humans is a product of cultural appropriation and reappropriation over and over again, It frames culture as something intrinsically "earned" rather than something that should be enjoyed by all, thus promoting the de-commodification of culture itself

But you have to realize, it depends upon a privileged ethnic group taking cultural elements from an oppressed group in a way that belittles the latter and is often done to enrich themselves and profit off of it. Ignoring this dynamic overlooks critical issues of race and nation
 
First I want to begin my comment by acknowledging the Phoenicians, who's unceded alphabet grants us the privilege of conversing here today.

Almost everything we do as humans is a product of cultural appropriation and reappropriation over and over again, It frames culture as something intrinsically "earned" rather than something that should be enjoyed by all, thus promoting the de-commodification of culture itself

But you have to realize, it depends upon a privileged ethnic group taking cultural elements from an oppressed group in a way that belittles the latter and is often done to enrich themselves and profit off of it. Ignoring this dynamic overlooks critical issues of race and nation

I mean, if you truly dominate another then you can basically do what you want including taking things from them.

Surely we're all typically dominant on our own land, like your own nation or even to some degree your own house.
 
I mean, if you truly dominate another then you can basically do what you want including taking things from them.

Surely we're all typically dominant on our own land, like your own nation or even to some degree your own house.
When cultural appropriation involves the exercise of raw power without understanding original significance of the culture, it reinforce systems of inequality by leaving the oppressed group in a position where their culture is commodified rather than celebrated
I think it's nice to celebrate your own culture but I think it's a bit harsh to shame people for enjoying things from other people's cultures.
If you believed culture should be something enjoyed by all, it must be done with an acknowledgment of its historical significance attach to it
 
When cultural appropriation involves the exercise of raw power without understanding original significance of the culture, it reinforce systems of inequality by leaving the oppressed group in a position where their culture is commodified rather than celebrated

If you believed culture should be something enjoyed by all, it must be done with an acknowledgment of its historical significance attach to it

I'm a libertarian at heart so I'm not typically in the business of telling people what they should and shouldn't do. Would you punish people who didn't acknowledge it, or?

And... why would the dominant group care how the weaker group felt? They would be able to call the shots because they're the dominant group.
 
I'm a libertarian at heart so I'm not typically in the business of telling people what they should and shouldn't do. Would you punish people who didn't acknowledge it, or?
No, punishing someone for their ignorance won't solve the "problem" because under capitalism the commodification of culture and the nation state itself promotes the ethnic divisions that exist in our current society
And... why would the dominant group care how the weaker group felt? They would be able to call the shots because they're the dominant group.
I send a letter to the Italian PM every time I want to cook spaghetti asking for permission to cook it.
 
No, punishing someone for their ignorance won't solve the "problem" because under capitalism the commodification of culture and the nation state itself promotes the ethnic divisions that exist in our current society

But why is it a problem for ethnic groups to have countries?

I send a letter to the Italian PM every time I want to cook spaghetti asking for permission to cook it.

As someone who is something like half Italian, I appreciate this! lol
 
as a non-white I would not care in the slightest if someone borrowed my culture
 
as a non-white I would not care in the slightest if someone borrowed my culture

People poke fun at Italians and Brits all the time and it doesn't bother me...

I mean, maybe if it's REALLY nasty but for the most part I don't think it's good to let little things like that get to you. Oftentimes it's meant in a positive way anyway.
 
But why is it a problem for ethnic groups to have countries?
The problem isn't about ethnic groups having their own countries, but rather how the capitalist state used to enforce divisions perpetuate tension between groups to promote nationalism, thus ensuring that minorities groups remain in a subordinate position.

Cultures however are not static as imposed by nationalism but an ever-evolving through dialectical process where diverse cultural expressions interact on it's conflicting ideas eventually sublate into a higher synthesis. This synthesis emphasizes the true value of mutual appreciation. In this way, cultures can coexist, influence one another, and enrich the shared human experience, transcending the artificial boundaries that nationalism seek to create.
 
The problem isn't about ethnic groups having their own countries, but rather how the capitalist state used to enforce divisions perpetuate tension between groups to promote nationalism, thus ensuring that minorities groups remain in a subordinate position.

Cultures however are not static as imposed by nationalism but an ever-evolving through dialectical process where diverse cultural expressions interact on it's conflicting ideas eventually sublate into a higher synthesis. This synthesis emphasizes the true value of mutual appreciation. In this way, cultures can coexist, influence one another, and enrich the shared human experience, transcending the artificial boundaries that nationalism seek to create.

That still doesn't explain why - for example - the Chinese aren't allowed to keep China or the Italians aren't allowed to keep Italy. You seem to be saying that that's inherently objectionable and you haven't explained why you think that.

Also why shouldn't the native people get good treatment in their own country? If I went to China I'd understand I was a guest.
 
It seem my answers is quite confusing since it wasn’t structured as one cohesive post.

Let start with the short ones.
Also why shouldn't the native people get good treatment in their own country? If I went to China I'd understand I was a guest.
Considering the native people of their own country, who are typically the majority ethnic group, In most cases, the majority ethnic group in a nation tends to hold power and influence over how minorities ethnic are treated as they see fit. You already answer this yourself :waitwhat:, below.
I mean, if you truly dominate another then you can basically do what you want including taking things from them.

Surely we're all typically dominant on our own land, like your own nation or even to some degree your own house.
it depends upon a privileged ethnic group taking cultural elements from an oppressed group in a way that belittles the latter and is often done to enrich themselves and profit off of it. Ignoring this dynamic overlooks critical issues of race and nation
In this context I’m talking how cultural appropriation becomes commodified under capitalism, whether it should get good or bad treatment its depend upon the majority (sound democratic :feelskek:). Let me give you an example: the so called "Chinese silk dress" (Qipao) are not Han Chinese but Manchu who are an ethnic minority of northern China that came to rule the empire throughout its last 200 years until its fall in the Xinhai Revolution of 1911, after the establishment of the Republic of China, cultural "items" like the Qipao became associated with the broader Chinese identity, albeit in a more Han-centric context. The appropriation of Manchu "items" by the Han majority often ignored the history of this "items" as part of a oppressed group’s identity.

Now for long ones.
That still doesn't explain why - for example - the Chinese aren't allowed to keep China or the Italians aren't allowed to keep Italy. You seem to be saying that that's inherently objectionable and you haven't explained why you think that.
The 19th century gave birth to nationalism the idea that a nation was no longer just defined by its rulers but by ethnicity language and culture in this turbulent age which saw uprisings around the formation of a modern national identity (nation become group of shared culture), culture in this sense is a collective consciousness or shared understanding of a people.

Nationalism operate on the idea of linear hierarchy in which some cultures are more "superior". However cultures are not necessarily superior in a moral sense, but more developed in terms of Sittlichkeit the ability of individuals to recognize their universal principles. For example, a European culture that has developed strong democratic institutions might be seen as further along in terms of self-consciousness compared to one that is still in a more traditional-religious phase like the Arabic ones. But that doesn't make one culture "superior" in every respect it's just more developed in certain ways that contribute to the collective consciousness of humanity as it unfolds over time.

When two cultures interact, they don’t merely clash or merge into one homogenous form. Instead, they go through a dialectical process, which involves both preserving aspects of the original cultures and transforming them into something new or hybridized (transcend their original forms).

Italy is a great example of this because it's historical complexity. Having each its own culture and language. In the North regions was historically influenced by Germanic, this is due to the Lombards (Germanic Tribe), who invaded the Italian Peninsula in the 6th century and established their kingdom. After the fall of the Lombard kingdom and its replacement by the Holy Roman Empire, the subsequent decline of the empire led to the fragmentation of the north into city states like Milan and Venice, each developing its own distinct culture. In the south regions, its geographic location at the crossroads of the Mediterranean become a melting pot of Greek, Arabic, and Norman. The idea of a singular "Italian" identity is a long dialectical process.

So, your question why aren't the Chinese and Italians "allowed" to keep their respective nations based on their dominant ethnic groups? is not a "problem" but rather find it paradoxical because the very notion of "nation" is a constructed identity from culture that has evolved over time through dialectical processes eventually sublate into a higher synthesis. Nationalism seeks to define a nation by rigid markers of ethnicity, language, and culture, but no nation can fully define itself in isolation the idea cannot be static, instead nations are connected to each other and that interactions and conflicts between them are part of the broader historical development. This interactions and conflicts led to a synthesis that incorporates elements of both cultures while transcending their limitations. In this way, cultures can coexist, influence one another, and enrich the shared human experience, transcending the artificial boundaries that nationalism seek to create.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

shape1
shape2
shape3
shape4
shape5
shape6
Back
Top