Experiment CMV: Atleast a half of the Balkans is technically muttified

[Shark]

I honestly came to believe the Balkans while mostly white are still muttified to an extent. As far as I know because of the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans from the 14th century up until the early 20th in some territories, some Serbs, Bosnians and especially Bulgarians and Macedonians of today have a certain amount of Turkish ancestry. Meanwhile Croats are basically the most European in the Balkans. This can be seen by this map:

Now since I'm admitably not very knowledgeable on genetics, I'm not sure how much Turkish DNA is present in Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and Bulgarians on average but close to where I was born I have seen Serbs who could pass as Anatolian Turks, even in my family there are some Serbs and they wouldn't stick out much in İstanbul for example. Its hard to deny that the Ottoman Empire might have left not only cultural influences but also genetic influences on the population.

@RealSchizo
@DarkStar

 

[Shark]

Not to mention there is also illyrian, Italian and some German blood present in many regions together with the Slavic ancestrty. Its a mixed region

 

[Therapywasawaste]

I figured because of the way they look.

 

[DarkStar]

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:

Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

I figured because of the way they look.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

 

[SilentShadow]

Slovenia is the most white balkan country.

 

[Shark]

Slovenia is the most white balkan country.

Slovenia is not even really Balkan. They are Central European and so is a part of Croatia

 

[Shark]

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:


View attachment 1280016
View attachment 1280017


Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

I see. Well, as you yourself admited there is a small amount of admixture in some regions. So yes I would agree with it being in smaller scales but technically you could say they are mixed and not really pure Slavs or Illyrians. I will now take a look at the genetic studies

 

[DarkStar]

I see. Well, as you yourself admited there is a small amount of admixture in some regions.

I likely imagine in those regions closest to it, but even then I doubt everyone there is a "le 56 face" mutt

So yes I would agree with it being in smaller scales but technically you could say they are mixed and not really pure Slavs or Illyrians. I will now take a look at the genetic studies

Ye those studies show they're genetically European still, made of the same groups as the rest

 

[hghcel]

racemixxing in the ottomans wasnt as prevelant because of religion. If you marry a muslim the child is automatically considered muslim and raised turkish, islam doesnt allow for men of other faiths to marry muslim women but it allows for the opposite as long as the child is raised muslim and turkish. The only mutt nations in the balkans are the serbs,albanians,macedonians,bosnians. The serbs because they christianized jews and muslims with force.

 

[DarkStar]

racemixxing in the ottomans wasnt as prevelant because of religion. If you marry a muslim the child is automatically considered muslim and raised turkish, islam doesnt allow for men of other faiths to marry muslim women but it allows for the opposite as long as the child is raised muslim and turkish. The only mutt nations in the balkans are the serbs,albanians,macedonians,bosnians. The serbs because they christianized jews and muslims with force.

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk due to phenotype similarities.

 

[hghcel]

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk.

The serbs forcefully converted a huge chunk of their muslim population and they did the same with the jews lebelling them as serbian mosehites but that wasn't as widespread. I forgot the report but back in the day the league of nations reported that the serbs didn't respect religious autonomy and refused to recognize other ethnic groups. The greeks didn't get altered because they only forced othrodox christians to become greeks and expelled its muslim population and the reason they did that was because they believed that the bulgarians were a fake nation etc if the greeks that the nation wasn't fake they didn't force them to become greeks such as with serbians, turks, jews aromanians.

 

[hghcel]

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk due to phenotype similarities.

in regards to the data

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

DNA Analysis Sheds Light on the Mysterious Origins of the Ancient Greeks

Scholars have long puzzled over the ancestry of the Minoans and Myceneans, two important Bronze Age cultures

www.smithsonianmag.com

https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/

More than Myth: Ancient DNA Reveals Roots of 1st Greek Civilizations

Scientists took DNA from Bronze Age skeletons to learn more about the origins of the Minoan and Mycenaean people, who built the first advanced civilizations in Greece.

www.livescience.com

DNA clue to origins of early Greek civilization

DNA is shedding light on the people who built Greece's earliest civilizations.

www.bbc.com

Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans - Nature

New genome-wide data for ancient, Bronze Age individuals, including Minoans, Mycenaeans, and southwestern Anatolians, show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically very similar yet distinct, supporting the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean.

www.nature.com

Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks - European Journal of Human Genetics

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German...

www.nature.com

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310.pdf

https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature23310-s1.pdf

European journal of Human Genetics: "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks"
- https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

National libary of Medicine: "Genetic history of the population of Crete" -Department of Medicine, Division of Medical Genetics, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31192450/

Department of Anthropology, University of Vienna: "Genetic continuation of the Minoans and Mycenaeans"
- https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#article-info

German National Genome Research Network: "Correlation between Genetic and Geographic Structure in Europe"
- https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2008.07.049

American Journal of Physical Anthropology."Reconstruction of human evolutionary tree using polymorphic autosomal microsatellites"
- https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.10234
( FST distances showed that Greeks group with other European and Mediterranean populations, especially with Italians (−0.0001) and Tuscans (0.0005))

University of Stanford: Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/
(The Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and is high in Greeks as well as southern Italians. E-V13 is also found in Corsicans and Provencals)

Princeton University Press, Princeton: In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC385092/
(The results of the study support the idea of genetic continuity between these civilizations and modern Greeks but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations)

heres some for the bulgarians

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
From florence italy/
which indicate a substantial proto-Bulgarian input to the contemporary Bulgarian people, our data suggest that a common paternal ancestry between the proto-Bulgarians and the Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations either did not exist or was negligible.

A genetic analysis of the people currently inhabiting the country of Bulgaria
The Bulgarian mitochondrial genome consists entirely of haplogroups typical for the West European populations. Haplogroups that are typical for the Caucuses and Central Asia, such as
W, H5 and H6, are represented at a very low frequency: 0.5%, 3.4%, and 1.6%, respectively.

 

[DarkStar]

The serbs forcefully converted a huge chunk of their muslim population and they did the same with the jews lebelling them as serbian mosehites but that wasn't as widespread. I forgot the report but back in the day the league of nations reported that the serbs didn't respect religious autonomy and refused to recognize other ethnic groups. The greeks didn't get altered because they only forced othrodox christians to become greeks and expelled its muslim population and the reason they did that was because they believed that the bulgarians were a fake nation etc if the greeks that the nation wasn't fake they didn't force them to become greeks such as with serbians, turks, jews aromanians.

Interesting

Most Serbs I've seen do look White/Whitish though, and in regards to some being Turk-passing from what I understand, that's due to Turkey being a massively mixed nation to start with.

 

[edgelordcel]

Im pure blood

 

[Neutraliy]

Interesting

Most Serbs I've seen do look White/Whitish though, and in regards to some being Turk-passing from what I understand, that's due to Turkey being a massively mixed nation to start with.

It is because the turks imported serbs, croats, greeks, and any other people from europe into the turkey. This is why you see turk who looked like people from balkan. It is not the turks who genetically influence the serbs but the other way around.

 

[Balikesir]

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:


View attachment 1280016
View attachment 1280017


Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

What you are showing our friend in your picture is a very bad g25 modeling.

This is what would be called an 'overfit'. You are using too many references to determine the admixture of a given ethnicity.

It is true that balkan people do not descent from turkish however. It is important to mention that some albanians do show minor percentages of Xiongnu dna. The Xiongnu people are the descendants of the slab grave culture.

Turkish dna is uncommon but not impossible.

 

[Balikesir]

It is because the turks imported serbs, croats, greeks, and any other people from europe into the turkey. This is why you see turk who looked like people from balkan. It is not the turks who genetically influence the serbs but the other way around.

No this is a common myth spread by senseless people who hate turkey and want to give its achievements to its neighbors.

Here is Turkish dna. Turkish people on average are a mixture of byzantine anatolians and turkic people. In my area of balikesir there's additional slavic.

Discord-TDNA2 hosted at ImgBB

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Discord-AGDNA1 hosted at ImgBB

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The people you may be referring to are called muhacirs. Migrants translated in English. These people came to our lands for safety after the balkans was lost.

Muhacir - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Balikesir]

that's due to Turkey being a massively mixed nation to start with.

Turkey is not more mixed than the balkans my friend.

The balkan peoples descent from slavic migrants, native balkans and roman anatolians. 3 populations. Modern turkish people descent from byzantine anatolians and turkic people. We are less mixed actually. It is a stronger mix however as we have east asian ancestry. Balkans is mixed with europeans.

 

[DarkStar]

Turkey is not more mixed than the balkans my friend.

The balkan peoples descent from slavic migrants, native balkans and roman anatolians. 3 populations. Modern turkish people descent from byzantine anatolians and turkic people. We are less mixed actually. It is a stronger mix however as we have east asian ancestry. Balkans is mixed with europeans.

Incorrect, Turkey is very mixed

 

[Balikesir]

Incorrect, Turkey is very mixed

I sent photos. All you have is words. I can tell you don't like turks and this is your motivation for your postings.

Funny you didn't react to my other comments. It is a shame that dna forums are full of wannabe geneticists who hide behind the mask of objectivity, when they're just assholes who try their best to make ethnicities they dislike seem subhuman, while prompting the people they like as good.

 

[DarkStar]

I sent photos. All you have is words. I can tell you don't like turks and this is your motivation for your postings.

Funny you didn't react to my other comments. It is a shame that dna forums are full of wannabe geneticists who hide behind the mask of objectivity, when they're just assholes who try their best to make ethnicities they dislike seem subhuman, while prompting the people they like as good.

I wouldn't hate Turks, if they weren't arrogant cunts online who insult Europeans all the time & act like big-shots

And also, look at the genetic stuff I shared- it shows Turks are heavily mixed which matches with the regions history.

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:


View attachment 1280016
View attachment 1280017


Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

 

[Balikesir]

wouldn't hate Turks, if they weren't arrogant cunts online who insult Europeans all the time & act like big-shots

This is a reaction to the racism and identity rejection that turks have to go through. Compare the current situation as an example. I come here and tell my case and it seems like I insulted your family in some way judging by the way you are reacting. I have very little understanding of northern europeans, you have very little, or a very basic, understanding of turkish people. You see, im not here to mock you. Im stating a fact about my people.

The relation between turkish people and medieval byzantines will be discussed by Iosef Lazaridis in a few years I think. Im not making this up.

And also, look at the genetic stuff I shared- it shows Turks are heavily mixed which matches with the regions history.

Yes I responded to this. G25 is a distance based tool that compares how similar populations are. Let's say you are croatian, you as a croatian will be close to medieval slavs, because croats are mostly slavic.

When you are discussing turks g25 becomes a joke. Because turks are racemixed. We have east asian genetics that is lacking in all our neighbours aside from azeris. So genetically we will shift to those populations as they're having the same race mix as us.

G25 is great for european people. It is very bad for turks because of our unique mix. We have 10% pure east asian genetics on average. That 10% heavily changes our plotting.

I hope I was able to convey the issue. Davidski cooked up g25 in his basement. He's a polish person that specifies in european peoples. It is expected that the g25 tool works best for europeans and their descendents

 

[Balikesir]

This is a reaction to the racism and identity rejection that turks have to go through. Compare the current situation as an example. I come here and tell my case and it seems like I insulted your family in some way judging by the way you are reacting. I have very little understanding of northern europeans, you have very little, or a very basic, understanding of turkish people. You see, im not here to mock you. Im stating a fact about my people.

The relation between turkish people and medieval byzantines will be discussed by Iosef Lazaridis in a few years I think. Im not making this up.

Yes I responded to this. G25 is a distance based tool that compares how similar populations are. Let's say you are croatian, you as a croatian will be close to medieval slavs, because croats are mostly slavic.

When you are discussing turks g25 becomes a joke. Because turks are racemixed. We have east asian genetics that is lacking in all our neighbours aside from azeris. So genetically we will shift to those populations as they're having the same race mix as us.

G25 is great for european people. It is very bad for turks because of our unique mix. We have 10% pure east asian genetics on average. That 10% heavily changes our plotting.

I hope I was able to convey the issue. Davidski cooked up g25 in his basement. He's a polish person that specifies in european peoples. It is expected that the g25 tool works best for europeans and their descendents

As expected. No response.

Muh Turks are arrogant assholes I know everything about Turks. Let me show you my garbage global 25 models I downloaded from Reddit.

Cringe kid with tiktok image.