Experiment CMV: Atleast a half of the Balkans is technically muttified

[NeverGetUp36]

I honestly came to believe the Balkans while mostly white are still muttified to an extent. As far as I know because of the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans from the 14th century up until the early 20th in some territories, some Serbs, Bosnians and especially Bulgarians and Macedonians of today have a certain amount of Turkish ancestry. Meanwhile Croats are basically the most European in the Balkans. This can be seen by this map:

Now since I'm admitably not very knowledgeable on genetics, I'm not sure how much Turkish DNA is present in Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians and Bulgarians on average but close to where I was born I have seen Serbs who could pass as Anatolian Turks, even in my family there are some Serbs and they wouldn't stick out much in İstanbul for example. Its hard to deny that the Ottoman Empire might have left not only cultural influences but also genetic influences on the population.

@RealSchizo
@DarkStar

 

[NeverGetUp36]

Not to mention there is also illyrian, Italian and some German blood present in many regions together with the Slavic ancestrty. Its a mixed region

 

[Therapywasawaste]

I figured because of the way they look.

 

[DarkStar]

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:

Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

I figured because of the way they look.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

 

[ArcticAngel]

Slovenia is the most white balkan country.

 

[NeverGetUp36]

Slovenia is the most white balkan country.

Slovenia is not even really Balkan. They are Central European and so is a part of Croatia

 

[NeverGetUp36]

All because a region was occupied doesn't mean the populace completely was altered

It happened in LatAm, but it didn't happen in India

Now, there would have been some degree of mixing I'm sure: However, it was not on a mass-scale. Ottomans allowed some degree of self-governance & autonomy, most Muslims were converts, and they also seemed to remove people from the region if anything; with the whole jannisary system & through muslim converts migrating once the Turks got expelled

Here's some genetic stuff:


View attachment 1280016
View attachment 1280017


Balkans has a bunch of DNA still not found in Turkey

Turkey has always been a very diverse place, and as such plenty of different phenotypes will exist there.

The reason why some get confused, is because they have some phenotypes which just by default are similar:

Dinarid

Armenoid

Completely different in origin & in appearance when you look closely, but they do have some similarities/commonalities

I see. Well, as you yourself admited there is a small amount of admixture in some regions. So yes I would agree with it being in smaller scales but technically you could say they are mixed and not really pure Slavs or Illyrians. I will now take a look at the genetic studies

 

[DarkStar]

I see. Well, as you yourself admited there is a small amount of admixture in some regions.

I likely imagine in those regions closest to it, but even then I doubt everyone there is a "le 56 face" mutt

So yes I would agree with it being in smaller scales but technically you could say they are mixed and not really pure Slavs or Illyrians. I will now take a look at the genetic studies

Ye those studies show they're genetically European still, made of the same groups as the rest

 

[hghcel]

racemixxing in the ottomans wasnt as prevelant because of religion. If you marry a muslim the child is automatically considered muslim and raised turkish, islam doesnt allow for men of other faiths to marry muslim women but it allows for the opposite as long as the child is raised muslim and turkish. The only mutt nations in the balkans are the serbs,albanians,macedonians,bosnians. The serbs because they christianized jews and muslims with force.

 

[DarkStar]

racemixxing in the ottomans wasnt as prevelant because of religion. If you marry a muslim the child is automatically considered muslim and raised turkish, islam doesnt allow for men of other faiths to marry muslim women but it allows for the opposite as long as the child is raised muslim and turkish. The only mutt nations in the balkans are the serbs,albanians,macedonians,bosnians. The serbs because they christianized jews and muslims with force.

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk due to phenotype similarities.

 

[hghcel]

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk.

The serbs forcefully converted a huge chunk of their muslim population and they did the same with the jews lebelling them as serbian mosehites but that wasn't as widespread. I forgot the report but back in the day the league of nations reported that the serbs didn't respect religious autonomy and refused to recognize other ethnic groups. The greeks didn't get altered because they only forced othrodox christians to become greeks and expelled its muslim population and the reason they did that was because they believed that the bulgarians were a fake nation etc if the greeks that the nation wasn't fake they didn't force them to become greeks such as with serbians, turks, jews aromanians.

 

[hghcel]

Any data stuff?

I find it hard to believe Greece didn't get altered, yet Serbia did somehow.

Most Serbs I've seen look White, though ofc some can pass as Turk due to phenotype similarities.

in regards to the data

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

DNA Analysis Sheds Light on the Mysterious Origins of the Ancient Greeks

Scholars have long puzzled over the ancestry of the Minoans and Myceneans, two important Bronze Age cultures

www.smithsonianmag.com

https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/

More than Myth: Ancient DNA Reveals Roots of 1st Greek Civilizations

Scientists took DNA from Bronze Age skeletons to learn more about the origins of the Minoan and Mycenaean people, who built the first advanced civilizations in Greece.

www.livescience.com

DNA clue to origins of early Greek civilization

DNA is shedding light on the people who built Greece's earliest civilizations.

www.bbc.com

Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans - Nature

New genome-wide data for ancient, Bronze Age individuals, including Minoans, Mycenaeans, and southwestern Anatolians, show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically very similar yet distinct, supporting the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean.

www.nature.com

Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks - European Journal of Human Genetics

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German...

www.nature.com

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310.pdf

https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature23310-s1.pdf

European journal of Human Genetics: "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks"
- https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

National libary of Medicine: "Genetic history of the population of Crete" -Department of Medicine, Division of Medical Genetics, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31192450/

Department of Anthropology, University of Vienna: "Genetic continuation of the Minoans and Mycenaeans"
- https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#article-info

German National Genome Research Network: "Correlation between Genetic and Geographic Structure in Europe"
- https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2008.07.049

American Journal of Physical Anthropology."Reconstruction of human evolutionary tree using polymorphic autosomal microsatellites"
- https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.10234
( FST distances showed that Greeks group with other European and Mediterranean populations, especially with Italians (−0.0001) and Tuscans (0.0005))

University of Stanford: Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/
(The Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and is high in Greeks as well as southern Italians. E-V13 is also found in Corsicans and Provencals)

Princeton University Press, Princeton: In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC385092/
(The results of the study support the idea of genetic continuity between these civilizations and modern Greeks but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations)

heres some for the bulgarians

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
From florence italy/
which indicate a substantial proto-Bulgarian input to the contemporary Bulgarian people, our data suggest that a common paternal ancestry between the proto-Bulgarians and the Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations either did not exist or was negligible.

A genetic analysis of the people currently inhabiting the country of Bulgaria
The Bulgarian mitochondrial genome consists entirely of haplogroups typical for the West European populations. Haplogroups that are typical for the Caucuses and Central Asia, such as
W, H5 and H6, are represented at a very low frequency: 0.5%, 3.4%, and 1.6%, respectively.

 

[DarkStar]

The serbs forcefully converted a huge chunk of their muslim population and they did the same with the jews lebelling them as serbian mosehites but that wasn't as widespread. I forgot the report but back in the day the league of nations reported that the serbs didn't respect religious autonomy and refused to recognize other ethnic groups. The greeks didn't get altered because they only forced othrodox christians to become greeks and expelled its muslim population and the reason they did that was because they believed that the bulgarians were a fake nation etc if the greeks that the nation wasn't fake they didn't force them to become greeks such as with serbians, turks, jews aromanians.

Interesting

Most Serbs I've seen do look White/Whitish though, and in regards to some being Turk-passing from what I understand, that's due to Turkey being a massively mixed nation to start with.

 

[edgelordcel]

Im pure blood