Blackpill Are men not supposed to be friends? The nature of male friendships

[TheHungariancel]

I want to share an idea with you that I’ve been thinking about over the past few days.

I’ve been an observer all my life. I’ve spent years analyzing the social dynamics of the people around me - their relationships, how they interact with each other, what they talk about, how social hierarchies form, etc. Although I have a natural inclination toward observation, I didn’t really choose to be this way. Due to unfortunate circumstances - being outcast at school, being non-NT, and other factors - I became someone who isn’t part of any community, always watching from the outside. It’s like standing next to the pitch in a football match, watching others play.

I often read posts where feminists argue that men - incels in particular - shouldn’t rely solely on women for emotional support, compliments, affection, and reassurance. This might not be a popular opinion, but I think they have a point on this. I agree that men should build strong, long-lasting bonds, form a “brotherhood,” and support each other through hard times.

However, my idea is that men are simply not capable of this. Biologically and evolutionarily, we are not wired to be emotionally (or in any other meaningful way) supportive of each other.

The reason for this could be that men subconsciously see each other as competition - mainly for social status. Throughout evolution, being open and vulnerable with other men (especially with women) was not a beneficial survival trait. The core feminist argument is that this dynamic results from "toxic masculinity," a construct pushed by the patriarchy. I disagree with this perspective because it ignores the fixed biological nature of men.

The whole concept of male friendship is incomprehensible to me. In my observation, men form alliances, not friendships. It’s alliances that bind men together. Life for men is a constant battle - a war for money, status, fame, women, etc. Everyone is driven by self-interest, but sometimes, in order to achieve our own selfish goals, we form alliances with other selfish men to multiply our power and outcompete others. Alliances are built on competence and a shared objective. This pattern is evident throughout history: men create tribes to conquer other tribes for resources, political parties to gain power, and companies to generate profit. If there is no common goal, men have no reason to be around each other. That's one of the reasons why modern men are lonelier than ever and also way lonelier than modern women. We don't have have anything conquer, anything to achieve, so why the fuck would we do anything together? And what? Get drunk and do stupid shit?

Thing is, men really don't give a fuck about each other and they probably never did, unless you have something to offer that they can benefit from (I wrote a post on the transactional nature of human interactions last year, you can read it here if you're interested).

I sometimes have this thought where most guys (probably on this forum as well) secretly hope that there will be a war where most guys die or get massecred so that the competition for women gets way less cut-throat.

I could talk about whether brotherhood is real or not, or whether the 'bros before hoes' thing is bullshit or not, but Rehab Room made a pretty good video on this topic and explained it better than I could:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1i_bPmQf74




Keep in my mind that I have never ever had a true friend in my life and I'm biased because of that.

What do you think? Can men be truly friends with each other?

 

[Friezacel]

What do you think? Can men be truly friends with each other?

Unless both parties of the friendship have easy access to foids, male friendship is a meme

 

[TheHungariancel]

Unless both parties of the friendship have easy access to foids, male friendship is a meme

Good point. If one of them gets into a relationship that completely changes the dynamics of that friendship. It could create an imbalance, which ends in one mogging the other, which breeds envy and that's it. The friendship is over.

 

[copiummax]

What do you think? Can men be truly friends with each other?

dont know never had any friends and never will have any friends.

 

[DutchCel01]

Low iq thread

 

[userrrr]

very important and interesting topic

 

[slavcel11]

I just don't see any meaningful basis to form a spiritual connection with another man. As if men just don't have that many reasons to be friends with each other. And even then, this "friendship" is very superficial, like you just get drunk together or whatever, such friends you are. Only foids can value such inconsequential shit. I know in theory it would be cool for someone to have my back, but I don't think it's for most men. Foids are simply wired differently, their whole life is but a collection of fleeting moments of blissful indolence where they casually "vibe" with each other. Like two dogs who start randomly bark on the street after sniffing each other ass for the first time.

 

[TheHungariancel]

Low iq thread

Would you explain why? I tried to be as articulate as possible to make my idea clear.

 

[userrrr]

Would you explain why? I tried to be as articulate as possible to make my idea clear.

Don't listen to him. High iq thread , but we don't know the answer

 

[TheHungariancel]

Don't listen to him. High iq thread , but we don't know the answer

Thank you, appreciate it a lot.

 

[TheHungariancel]

I just don't see any meaningful basis to form a spiritual connection with another man. As if men just don't have that many reasons to be friends with each other. And even then, this "friendship" is very superficial, like you just get drunk together or whatever, such friends you are.

Yes, the things that bounded us together (wars, conquering or discovering places etc.) are no longer there. Even these things that connected us were not even that deep either. And the fact that men can't connect with each other unless there's war or some shit like that is just tragic itself.

 

[Richard The Kanga]

I just want to say, women aren't angels either

None of the bs people push from both sides is true

Friendship has always been so that people can use it in whatever way they can, no matter how evil or twisted it may seem to another

 

[TheHungariancel]

I just want to say, women aren't angels either

Yes obviously, there’s female competition as well but they still seem to be able to connect better with each other.

 

[cripplecel]

There is no point of befriending most males. They will throw you under the bus if you are INCEL.

That is why we incels barely have friends.

 

[Rasama]

Not likely. That's a black pill on men's nature, we are competitive beings

But especially on acquiring foids

Men would sabotage and backstab eachother to get a mate

 

[nullterror]

was the genuine display that melted a king's heart to kill neither of them because they insisted for the king to kill the other instead of their friend a fake story? the fact that the king was so touched by their friendship also says something more than general about the depth of male nature.

 

[reveries]

Two morally developed, not cucked and not hungry (have foids/money/status already) men can form a deep friendship no two foids would ever be able to replicate.
You won't see much of it because normies are immoral, selfish and very not self aware, and other incels are just too hungry to care about other men. So true male friendship is mostly a higher class, higher level of consciousness men thing.

 

[twisted]

Yes obviously, there’s female competition as well but they still seem to be able to connect better with each other.

they are more emotionally intimate with each other in the short term but that doesn't necessarily mean the friendship is more stable, female friendships are more conditional once one of the friends stop acting as an emotional tampon the friendship is cut off

 

[RegularManlet]

The ultimate male fantasy to some is to be the only male on planet earth

 

[TheHungariancel]

Two morally developed, not cucked and not hungry (have foids/money/status already) men can form a deep friendship no two foids would ever be able to replicate.
You won't see much of it because normies are immoral, selfish and very not self aware, and other incels are just too hungry to care about other men. So true male friendship is mostly a higher class, higher level of consciousness men thing.

You’re probably right, but I still have doubts over this. If men don’t have a common goal to fight for, they simply have no point to be around each other, regardless if they’re already established or not.

We’re not higher class men and likely never will be, so we won’t be able to tell if true male friendship is real or not anyway.

 

[TheHungariancel]

There is no point of befriending most males. They will throw you under the bus if you are INCEL.

That is why we incels barely have friends.

Not likely. That's a black pill on men's nature, we are competitive beings

But especially on acquiring foids

Men would sabotage and backstab eachother to get a mate

True. Backstabbing each other for mates is especially something I’ve seen irl. It’s just depressing.

 

[reveries]

You’re probably right, but I still have doubts over this. If men don’t have a common goal to fight for, they simply have no point to be around each other, regardless if they’re already established or not.

We’re not higher class men and likely never will be, so we won’t be able to tell if true male friendship is real or not anyway.

I think it's just a higher need, to connect with other human not out of necessity to reach a common goal or to have romantic relationships/sex with, but for companionship. In our case, we are too hungry for foids and social success to understand that. It comes after those are reached. It's a Maslow's pyramid thing.

 

[TheHungariancel]

The ultimate male fantasy to some is to be the only male on planet earth

I’ve genuinely never fantasized about this before, but this thought is most likely within my subconscious.

 

[RegularManlet]

I’ve genuinely never fantasized about this before, but this thought is most likely within my subconscious.

I'm sure you can imagine it though, you would be an automatic winner as the only male on planet, women would literally line up just to have sex with you and your cock would constantly be sore and shriveled

 

[Maladjusted Jerk]

Everything could be proven essentially worthless. It is belief in those ideals that makes it stay, not the actual idea itself. Men who believe in brotherhood will try to honestly maintain as such. All friendships that last long are convenient anyway which is how you avoid all this.

 

[TheHungariancel]

Everything could be proven essentially worthless. It is belief in those ideals that makes it stay, not the actual idea itself.

I agree. Since life itself is worthless, everything that happens during it will be worthless.

Men who believe in brotherhood will try to honestly maintain as such.

If only there would be men who believe in brotherhood, but there isn’t any. You can believe in it as strong as you want, it’s not going to happen, because the concept itself is false. Brotherhood or deeper connection between men doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary or biological standpoint.

Just like how God is not real or how communism will never work: it’s all fantasy, delusion. These fantasies are effective for organizing a society and masses of people, but they’re just lies that give people meaning in order for them not fall into nihilism and despair.

All friendships that last long are convenient anyway which is how you avoid all this.

Could explain more precisely what you mean here? I didn’t fully understand this part.

 

[sadlemon]

I don't agree. I've met good friends over the years and there's a lot of people that are good natured, both women and men. The only problem is that we are ugly and can't get a girlfriend, and sometimes spending time with your more goodlooking friends is pure torture. Other than that if you met backstabing bitches is just a matter of having bad luck/ being a bad judge of character

 

[TheHungariancel]

I don't agree. I've met good friends over the years and there's a lot of people that are good natured, both women and men. The only problem is that we are ugly and can't get a girlfriend, and sometimes spending time with your more goodlooking friends is pure torture. Other than that if you met backstabing bitches is just a matter of having bad luck/ being a bad judge of character

Fair enough, although I’ve encountered more backstabbing and humiliation and other shit from guys rather than girls. Girls simply saw me as a ghost most of the time.

It’s good for you that you have friends, but my point still stands: guys deep down don’t care about each other because there is a brutal competition between guys for resources and status.

 

[Maladjusted Jerk]

I agree. Since life itself is worthless, everything that happens during it will be worthless.

If only there would be men who believe in brotherhood, but there isn’t any. You can believe in it as strong as you want, it’s not going to happen, because the concept itself is false. Brotherhood or deeper connection between men doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary or biological standpoint.

Just like how God is not real or how communism will never work: it’s all fantasy, delusion. These fantasies are effective for organizing a society and masses of people, but they’re just lies that give people meaning in order for them not fall into nihilism and despair.

Could explain more precisely what you mean here? I didn’t fully understand this part.

Every concept is false, nothing is proven in reality besides death. But in those concept there are cogs who will maintain the illusion and in doing so they will make it real. A lot of them are willing to ditch it if given the chance but for those who aren't they will continue and that is where the average man resides. Forever breaking his back just for society to resemble something real while those who rule over him abide by a cruel secret he'll never know. As for the friendship point, I mostly mean to just apply the same hypervigilance you would have with the blackpill ideology but on friendship. A person can't hurt you if they have nothing to use nor gain from if they think you have nothing. It becomes conveinent that way and if they don't like it then you move on having suffered no real consequence. To me friendship is more of a social buffer to keep from going crazy than anything else. If you already understand the worst then surely you can have what you know you can get.

 

[Rapistcel]

I want to share an idea with you that I’ve been thinking about over the past few days.

I’ve been an observer all my life. I’ve spent years analyzing the social dynamics of the people around me - their relationships, how they interact with each other, what they talk about, how social hierarchies form, etc. Although I have a natural inclination toward observation, I didn’t really choose to be this way. Due to unfortunate circumstances - being outcast at school, being non-NT, and other factors - I became someone who isn’t part of any community, always watching from the outside. It’s like standing next to the pitch in a football match, watching others play.

I often read posts where feminists argue that men - incels in particular - shouldn’t rely solely on women for emotional support, compliments, affection, and reassurance. This might not be a popular opinion, but I think they have a point on this. I agree that men should build strong, long-lasting bonds, form a “brotherhood,” and support each other through hard times.

However, my idea is that men are simply not capable of this. Biologically and evolutionarily, we are not wired to be emotionally (or in any other meaningful way) supportive of each other.

The reason for this could be that men subconsciously see each other as competition - mainly for social status. Throughout evolution, being open and vulnerable with other men (especially with women) was not a beneficial survival trait. The core feminist argument is that this dynamic results from "toxic masculinity," a construct pushed by the patriarchy. I disagree with this perspective because it ignores the fixed biological nature of men.

The whole concept of male friendship is incomprehensible to me. In my observation, men form alliances, not friendships. It’s alliances that bind men together. Life for men is a constant battle - a war for money, status, fame, women, etc. Everyone is driven by self-interest, but sometimes, in order to achieve our own selfish goals, we form alliances with other selfish men to multiply our power and outcompete others. Alliances are built on competence and a shared objective. This pattern is evident throughout history: men create tribes to conquer other tribes for resources, political parties to gain power, and companies to generate profit. If there is no common goal, men have no reason to be around each other. That's one of the reasons why modern men are lonelier than ever and also way lonelier than modern women. We don't have have anything conquer, anything to achieve, so why the fuck would we do anything together? And what? Get drunk and do stupid shit?

Thing is, men really don't give a fuck about each other and they probably never did, unless you have something to offer that they can benefit from (I wrote a post on the transactional nature of human interactions last year, you can read it here if you're interested).

I sometimes have this thought where most guys (probably on this forum as well) secretly hope that there will be a war where most guys die or get massecred so that the competition for women gets way less cut-throat.

I could talk about whether brotherhood is real or not, or whether the 'bros before hoes' thing is bullshit or not, but Rehab Room made a pretty good video on this topic and explained it better than I could:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1i_bPmQf74




Keep in my mind that I have never ever had a true friend in my life and I'm biased because of that.

What do you think? Can men be truly friends with each other?

High IQ post

 

[LifeMaxxer]

Low iq thread

 

[LifeMaxxer]

I think you are projecting

 

[TheHungariancel]

Every concept is false, nothing is proven in reality besides death. But in those concept there are cogs who will maintain the illusion and in doing so they will make it real. A lot of them are willing to ditch it if given the chance but for those who aren't they will continue and that is where the average man resides. Forever breaking his back just for society to resemble something real while those who rule over him abide by a cruel secret he'll never know. As for the friendship point, I mostly mean to just apply the same hypervigilance you would have with the blackpill ideology but on friendship. A person can't hurt you if they have nothing to use nor gain from if they think you have nothing. It becomes conveinent that way and if they don't like it then you move on having suffered no real consequence. To me friendship is more of a social buffer to keep from going crazy than anything else. If you already understand the worst then surely you can have what you know you can get.

Very well written response, thanks for the correction. I agree with you.

As much as social interactions drain my energy and cause a lot of stress irl, I have to admit that even asocial, non-NT people like me need socialization with others. It’s also an evolutionary need of ours and it must be satisfied time to time. We want to be heard, want our existence to be recognized by others.

That’s one of the main reasons why I joined this forum. Full social isolation can make someone genuinely insane.

 

[TheHungariancel]

I think you are projecting

I might be. Our life experiences are different. However, my observations go beyond my personal life and the things I wrote about in my post can be observed in politics, business, romantic relationships and in everyday interactions.

 

[_meh]

You're definitely right.

The only people who have meaningful friendships are women.

Even within friendships men are competitive as you've alluded to.

A lot of the guys disagreeing with you in this thread are likely just youngcels.

 

[_meh]

Women actually benefit from being single and are much more happier being single as well.

Regardless, women benefit from both sides, being single and in a relationship.

 

[_meh]

Men can never have true friendship and brotherhood, it's all a facade.

 

[Alinyaung]

T

I want to share an idea with you that I’ve been thinking about over the past few days.

I’ve been an observer all my life. I’ve spent years analyzing the social dynamics of the people around me - their relationships, how they interact with each other, what they talk about, how social hierarchies form, etc. Although I have a natural inclination toward observation, I didn’t really choose to be this way. Due to unfortunate circumstances - being outcast at school, being non-NT, and other factors - I became someone who isn’t part of any community, always watching from the outside. It’s like standing next to the pitch in a football match, watching others play.

I often read posts where feminists argue that men - incels in particular - shouldn’t rely solely on women for emotional support, compliments, affection, and reassurance. This might not be a popular opinion, but I think they have a point on this. I agree that men should build strong, long-lasting bonds, form a “brotherhood,” and support each other through hard times.

However, my idea is that men are simply not capable of this. Biologically and evolutionarily, we are not wired to be emotionally (or in any other meaningful way) supportive of each other.

The reason for this could be that men subconsciously see each other as competition - mainly for social status. Throughout evolution, being open and vulnerable with other men (especially with women) was not a beneficial survival trait. The core feminist argument is that this dynamic results from "toxic masculinity," a construct pushed by the patriarchy. I disagree with this perspective because it ignores the fixed biological nature of men.

The whole concept of male friendship is incomprehensible to me. In my observation, men form alliances, not friendships. It’s alliances that bind men together. Life for men is a constant battle - a war for money, status, fame, women, etc. Everyone is driven by self-interest, but sometimes, in order to achieve our own selfish goals, we form alliances with other selfish men to multiply our power and outcompete others. Alliances are built on competence and a shared objective. This pattern is evident throughout history: men create tribes to conquer other tribes for resources, political parties to gain power, and companies to generate profit. If there is no common goal, men have no reason to be around each other. That's one of the reasons why modern men are lonelier than ever and also way lonelier than modern women. We don't have have anything conquer, anything to achieve, so why the fuck would we do anything together? And what? Get drunk and do stupid shit?

Thing is, men really don't give a fuck about each other and they probably never did, unless you have something to offer that they can benefit from (I wrote a post on the transactional nature of human interactions last year, you can read it here if you're interested).

I sometimes have this thought where most guys (probably on this forum as well) secretly hope that there will be a war where most guys die or get massecred so that the competition for women gets way less cut-throat.

I could talk about whether brotherhood is real or not, or whether the 'bros before hoes' thing is bullshit or not, but Rehab Room made a pretty good video on this topic and explained it better than I could:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1i_bPmQf74




Keep in my mind that I have never ever had a true friend in my life and I'm biased because of that.

What do you think? Can men be truly friends with each other?

True, I had had friends at times but they all left me asa they no longer see me a useful idiot. This is exactly what I've been thinking. The last one who had called me friend a lot last year stop communicating with me since I am no longer the only helper for him in his studies.

 

[ToBurble&Pine]

Can men be truly friends with each other?

No

 

[MentalistKebab]

Unless both parties of the friendship have easy access to foids, male friendship is a meme

This. Most of the so called "male friends" are willing to believe a random women in the street rather than you.

Sexually frustrated male, especially if he is bluepilled, might believe beating you and saving that random women might get him laid that night

 

[Blacksmith]

The ultimate male fantasy to some is to be the only male on planet earth

Spend every wake moment opening jars, killing spiders, buying flowers, reaching the top shelves, checking engine oil, lifting heavy objects for all the women in the world? Wow, sounds tiresome.

 

[lechad]

male friendship is a meme

 

[underballer]

Yes, the things that bounded us together (wars, conquering or discovering places etc.) are no longer there. Even these things that connected us were not even that deep either. And the fact that men can't connect with each other unless there's war or some shit like that is just tragic itself.

Yup

 

[Antorian]

I disagree, male friendships, when they are real, are much stronger and deeper than any friendship between women or relationships between male and female.

However, these kind of male friendships require certain conditions to even begin to form, unlike all other relationships.

These conditions are:
-
1- Heterosexual Male Only enviroment
Female presence introduces, even if subconsciously, the pressure of sexual competition, which prevents any kind of male friendship deeper than a shallow alliance from forming.
Likewise men are instinctively repelled by any hint of faggotry, and will avoid any behavior that would attract such vermin like the plague.
Therefore only when such diseased individuals are deliberaly excluded from the enviroment will normal men feel safe to display vulnerabilities and closer non-faggotfied emotional connections with their fellow men, forming lasting bonds.
-
2- Exclusive Enviroments
Men need to estailish exclusive groups where they meet with their peers, often needing some sort of rite of passage. That way they will be assured that the kind of men who are there are truly their peers and fellows.
Freedom of Association, including the freedom to exclude categories people, is crucial. Men cannot be forced to support or include people they don't want into their groups.
Religious fraternities, bike clubs, hobbies groups, warriot lodges, any kind of exclusive envioments can work.
-
3- Purpose-driven
Birds of a Feather flock together" as the saying goes.
Men are more likely to form deeper friendships with those they feel are similar to them. That is more likely to happen if the group/enviroment they are in provides a communal objective/purpose for them all to seek and strive forwards to
Religious associations, hobbies, trade unions, political/philosophical gatherings, that kind of thing

As you can see, the modern society with its loathsome concepts of egalitarianism, non-discrimination, inclusivity, sex-integration and tolerance of homosexuals has all but ensured the erasure of enviroments that foster male friendships.

 

[TheHungariancel]

I disagree, male friendships, when they are real, are much stronger and deeper than any friendship between women or relationships between male and female.

However, these kind of male friendships require certain conditions to even begin to form, unlike all other relationships.

These conditions are:
-
1- Heterosexual Male Only enviroment
Female presence introduces, even if subconsciously, the pressure of sexual competition, which prevents any kind of male friendship deeper than a shallow alliance from forming.

I agree with this one. I made a thread discussing whether boy-only schools could mitigate inceldom and it seems to me that it’s not a bad idea, because since there are no girls, there’s no competition for female attention, which could otherwise generate bullying.

Likewise men are instinctively repelled by any hint of faggotry, and will avoid any behavior that would attract such vermin like the plague.
Therefore only when such diseased individuals are deliberaly excluded from the enviroment will normal men feel safe to display vulnerabilities and closer non-faggotfied emotional connections with their fellow men, forming lasting bonds.

I can’t really imagine how these “non-faggotfied” connections would look like. How is removing gays from an environment (most male friendgroups or communities don’t even have gay people in them to begin with) will enable men to be more vulnerable?

That’s the problem I was talking about: men being vulnerable each other is seen as weak and gay. It was evolutionarily not beneficial, so we didn’t develop the ability to be vulnerable like women.

-
2- Exclusive Enviroments
Men need to estailish exclusive groups where they meet with their peers, often needing some sort of rite of passage. That way they will be assured that the kind of men who are there are truly their peers and fellows.

Freedom of Association, including the freedom to exclude categories people, is crucial. Men cannot be forced to support or include people they don't want into their groups.
Religious fraternities, bike clubs, hobbies groups, warriot lodges, any kind of exclusive envioments can work.

Good points, agreed.

-
3- Purpose-driven
Birds of a Feather flock together" as the saying goes.
Men are more likely to form deeper friendships with those they feel are similar to them. That is more likely to happen if the group/enviroment they are in provides a communal objective/purpose for them all to seek and strive forwards to
Religious associations, hobbies, trade unions, political/philosophical gatherings, that kind of thing

I talked about this in my post and my main point still stands: men form alliances, not friendships. I feel like I shouldn’t compare how men and women make friends, but my anecdotal experience and observations are that men simply don’t give a shit about each other. That’s the baseline for men.

If there’s no common objective, there’s nothing to talk about, nothing to do etc. Nothing.

As you can see, the modern society with its loathsome concepts of egalitarianism, non-discrimination, inclusivity, sex-integration and tolerance of homosexuals has all but ensured the erasure of enviroments that foster male friendships.

I haven’t looked into how these things contribute to the general loneliness men experience these days, but you may be right.

 

[Antorian]

I can’t really imagine how these “non-faggotfied” connections would look like. How is removing gays from an environment (most male friendgroups or communities don’t even have gay people in them to begin with) will enable men to be more vulnerable?

That’s the problem I was talking about: men being vulnerable each other is seen as weak and gay. It was evolutionarily not beneficial, so we didn’t develop the ability to be vulnerable like women.

The mere tolerance of gays in a society is damaging for heterosexual male friendships. They corrupt what would otherwise be platonic emotional gestures into disgusting, sexual gestures.

Consider the bond between Sam and Frodo as depicted in Lord of the Rings. Tolkien based it on the bonds he saw between soldiers in WW1, the kind of deep friendships where one is willing to die for the other. Where crying and hugging are seen emotional gestures of support, not sexual perversion.
In Tolkien's time faggots and their ilk were not tolerated by wider society, so men being emotional and supportive of one another, like they were in Lord of the Rings, had no sexual and "weak" connotations. They were instead signs of a deep bond between friends.

Take crying for example. In today's world, its seen as as "weak" for a man to cry anything beyond a single tear.
It was very much the opposite in medieval Europe. Crying was quite common among men and without social stigma, with bards even singing about how warriors and knights cried together in fear for their lives before battle.

In fact, that was very much the case for most of human history. In ancient Israel, warriors were known to collectively weep before the Lord prior to fighting a battle. Ancient Greek epics like The Iliad and The Odyssey show manly men like Achilles and Odysseus crying openly after fighting tense battles. Even the Romans were not immune from manly tears, as Plutarch's Lives and Virgil's Aeneid can attest.

Medieval knights could also be easily moved to tears. Heck, The Song of Roland mentions how 20,000 knights swooned with grief at the death of Roland. As recently as the 18th and 19th centuries, male tears were still viewed as a display of authentic emotion under certain circumstances, and indeed, a sign that separates man from beast. Not until the late 19th century, in England with its "Stiff Upper Lip" nonsense, did the taboo really come into being.