Arabs are missing the bigger picture by hating on the Ottoman Empire

[Pikacel]

It’s based off of this fallacy that the alternative to Turkish imperialism was independence (during the golden era of Western expansion)

You completely ignore that they had to deal with the entire Christendom at it’s peak power. If it weren’t for their efforts in defending the Ummah we’d probably all end up like the Philippines. So of course they had to consolidate Muslim polities to facilitate their brutal and constant defensive jihad against the kuffar. And so what if they did Sufi deviance, again it’s either become a slightly deviant Sufi or Catholic this purist utopian ideal wasn’t feasible at the time

Nothing more low IQ than this narrative of ‘muh my weak Arab tribe got raped a couple times by Turks’ you think Portugese colonists or Orthodox barbarians would’ve treated you any better? Arabs were weak at the time and couldn’t defend themselves, at least Turkish patronage allowed them to keep their religion.

Everyone nowadays wants muh independence for their 100 members 1 km strip of land owning tribe. It’s a joke

 

[Skelly]

Everyone nowadays wants muh independence for their 100 members 1 km strip of land owning tribe. It’s a joke

Ottomans were oppressive as fuck, especially to the Arabs. You can't blame them for wanting independence, better to be poor on your own terms than a slave to someone who hates you

my weak Arab tribe

And why do you think they were weak? They were being constantly exploited and deliberately decentralized so they could have no power and be forced to rely on the empire. You don't break someone's legs and then claim you're "protecting them from danger" jfl

If it weren’t for their efforts in defending the Ummah

What Ummah? Are you delusional? Arabs were a subordinate periphery that were barely tolerated. They were excluded from political power, heavily taxed, forcibly conscripted to fight wars that only benefited the turks, and ruled by people who were racist as shit and abused them whenever they could. What part of this sounds like a "Shared ummah" to you?

you think Portugese colonists or Orthodox barbarians would’ve treated you any better?

Unknowable and irrelevant. You can't make up some fake hypothetical to justify oppression and shame them for being rightfully angry and wanting independence from it

 

[Skelly]

You completely ignore that they had to deal with the entire Christendom at it’s peak power.

What is this fanfiction. There is no universe where euros in the 1500-1700s could colonize the Arabs even if the ottoman empire didn't exist

 

[lifesucksandyoudie]

They appointed Albanians to rule over Arabs.

 

[endoftheskies]

Ottomans were oppressive as fuck, especially to the Arabs. You can't blame them for wanting independence, better to be poor on your own terms than a slave to someone who hates you

Literally not true. The ottomans were more benevolent than most conquerors, as they setup their systems or milets. They tolerated all religions especially in an world lacking in them.

What Ummah? Are you delusional? Arabs were a subordinate periphery that were barely tolerated. They were excluded from political power, heavily taxed, forcibly conscripted to fight wars that only benefited the turks, and ruled by people who were racist as shit and abused them whenever they could. What part of this sounds like a "Shared ummah" to you?

The turks let Jews and Ethnics rule over them, and they allowed incredible tolerance for Armenians and Greeks until the latter became fifth columns. Jews and Ethnics lived much more comfortably than the average Anatolian.

And why do you think they were weak? They were being constantly exploited and deliberately decentralized so they could have no power and be forced to rely on the empire. You don't break someone's legs and then claim you're "protecting them from danger" jfl

Actually that's not true. The empire was decentralized yes, but that wasn't due to muh exploitation, it was more efficent to have tax farmers or others do the work for the government.

 

[Pikacel]

What is this fanfiction. There is no universe where euros in the 1500-1700s could colonize the Arabs even if the ottoman empire didn't exist

What makes you think this

 

[Skelly]

Literally not true. The ottomans were more benevolent than most conquerors, as they setup their systems or milets. They tolerated all religions especially in an world lacking in them.

So? Just because they were slightly less oppressive than others doesn't mean they weren't oppressive. "I only broke half of your bones, be grateful" jfl. And being tolerated is very different from having rights.

The turks let Jews and Ethnics rule over them, and they allowed incredible tolerance for Armenians and Greeks until the latter became fifth columns. Jews and Ethnics lived much more comfortably than the average Anatolian.

Irrelevant, arabs weren't apart of the millet system. If anything it only proves that they were targeting Arabs specifically since they could accomdate different religions and ethnic groups but not their "muslim brothers".
Also living comfortably doesn't mean you have political power, irrelevant point.

Actually that's not true. The empire was decentralized yes, but that wasn't due to muh exploitation, it was more efficent to have tax farmers or others do the work for the government.

?? How is that not exploitation? Spell it out for me. It was efficient BECAUSE it centralized all power in Istanbul and took away power from everyone else. You are admitting that they kept their peripheries weak and dependent on purpose. Tax farming is peak exploitation, hollowing out the provinces and funneling it all towards the center.

 

[Skelly]

tldr arabs were 100% justified and ottomans were cringe and gay actually

What makes you think this

Becuase they couldn't. Even the Portuguese at it's naval peak could hardly hold on to coastal forts and regularly got pushed out.

 

[endoftheskies]

So? Just because they were slightly less oppressive than others doesn't mean they weren't oppressive. "I only broke half of your bones, be grateful" jfl. And being tolerated is very different from having rights.

Irrelevant, arabs weren't apart of the millet system. If anything it only proves that they were targeting Arabs specifically since they could accomdate different religions and ethnic groups but not their "muslim brothers".
Also living comfortably doesn't mean you have political power, irrelevant point.

?? How is that not exploitation? Spell it out for me. It was efficient BECAUSE it centralized all power in Istanbul and took away power from everyone else. You are admitting that they kept their peripheries weak and dependent on purpose. Tax farming is peak exploitation, hollowing out the provinces and funneling it all towards the center.

Nah. Most of the empire was hard to control or adminster due to the fact of its immense size and usage. It was incredibly hard to adminster it. Ottomans were incredibly tolerant of all religions, and they tolerated Jews and Muslims when the Spanish did their reconquista. The Ottomans also protected Palestine from Jewish meddling, and zionism and guranteed the peaceful relations between the Palestinians and Jews, The Ottomans didn't allow for Zionist State in Palestine, and they were distrustful of the zionist movement at all. Look, in the 1901 edition of the Encloypedia Britannica, the Ottoman Empire had 22 races within it, all serving and being in an cohesive empire. Again, the government was so uncentralized that anarchy was common in the countrysides, this does not seem like oppression to me considering that the government didn't have any prescence there.

 

[Pikacel]

tldr arabs were 100% justified and ottomans were cringe and gay actually

Becuase they couldn't. Even the Portuguese at it's naval peak could hardly hold on to coastal forts and regularly got pushed out.

Eh Christians could’ve retaken the Middle East. Crusaders already got close, for an early modern Europe it would be like shooting fish in a barrel

Especially with a weak Anatolia

 

[Blackpill Monk]

The Ottomans also protected Palestine from Jewish meddling, and zionism and guranteed the peaceful relations between the Palestinians and Jews,

Nigger it was the Ottoman who sell the Palestinian land to Zionist

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Ottomans were incredibly tolerant of all religions

Armenian and Orthodox crying in corner

 

[The Notorious SLAV]

An interesting insight into a historical and political issue I know almost nothing about.

What Ummah? Are you delusional? Arabs were a subordinate periphery that were barely tolerated. They were excluded from political power, heavily taxed, forcibly conscripted to fight wars that only benefited the turks, and ruled by people who were racist as shit and abused them whenever they could. What part of this sounds like a "Shared ummah" to you?

A few weeks ago I was in a discussion where the topic of whether Ottoman society had any kind of systemic Turkish supremacy had come up. Would you say that this racism against Arabs was a prt of that, or was there not much more to it?

 

[Skelly]

A few weeks ago I was in a discussion where the topic of whether Ottoman society had any kind of systemic Turkish supremacy had come up. Would you say that this racism against Arabs was a prt of that, or was there not much more to it?

1000%. Advocates of the ottoman empire love to tout the fact that it was very tolerant of different ethnic groups and religions, but there's a huge difference between being "tolerated" and having rights. Yes you weren't gonna be burnt at the stake but that's pretty much it, you still have zero rights and it's constantly made clear who your superiors are (Turks)

 

[Pikacel]

Armenian and Orthodox crying in corner

Eh Orthodox weren’t exactly angels themselves, killed millions of innocents during the late 18th-early 19th century contraction

This made me understand the young turk genocides more. Orthos were defo planning to keep going and Turks said hell naw. Still immoral and unjustified ofc

 

[Blackpill Monk]

racist as shit and abused them whenever they could. What part of this sounds like a "Shared ummah" to you?

Aren't Arabs also racist on Non-Arabs. Remember how early Caliphates heavily discriminated against non-Arabs

 

[Skelly]

This made me understand the young turk genocides more

There is no justification for the armenian genocide. Genuinely a lowIQ move that destroyed millions of lives and for what? Innocent people scapegoated for a made up "turk" race

Aren't Arabs also racist on Non-Arabs. Remember how early Caliphates heavily discriminated against non-Arabs

Irrelevant to this thread. Also why are you painting all the caliphates with the same brush? Yes on one end you have the Umayyads who were racist as shit but on the other you have the Abbasids who were extremely inclusive of different ethnic groups in their territory, so much so that they even moved their capital from the arab Damascus to persian Baghdad

 

[Blackpill Monk]

persian Baghdad

Persian Baghdad

 

[Skelly]

Persian Baghdad

Who do you think ruled the city before the arabs showed up retard

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Irrelevant to this thread.

So only Arabs are allowed to do racism against others according to you and if Someone give Arabs the same taste of their own medicine, you cry like a whinny bitch

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Who do you think ruled the city before the arabs showed up retard

Baghdad isn't in Iraq which is Arab

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Abbasids who were extremely inclusive of different ethnic groups in their territory

Abbasids are all equally racist against non-Arabs, being tolerated doesn't means that non-Arabs have same rights there

 

[Skelly]

Baghdad isn't in Iraq which is Arab

I want you to think really hard about this one. Don't worry, you can take your time

 

[Skelly]

Abbasids are all equally racist against non-Arabs, being tolerated doesn't means that non-Arabs have same rights there

Are you seriously copying my own words that i posted in the exact same thread? Are you stupid?

but there's a huge difference between being "tolerated" and having rights

And for the record yes, non-arabs had equal rights in the Abbasid Caliphate. They even went out of their way to staff their government with non-arabs to be extra inclusive

 

[Blackpill Monk]

Are you seriously copying my own words that i posted in the exact same thread? Are you stupid?

And for the record yes, non-arabs had equal rights in the Abbasid Caliphate. They even went out of their way to staff their government with non-arabs to be extra inclusive

You are just a plain Arab supremacist who's just whitewashing the racist crimes of Arabs.
Non Arabs don't have equal rights there. Non Arabs are treated as inferior

 

[Pikacel]

There is no justification for the armenian genocide. Genuinely a lowIQ move that destroyed millions of lives and for what? Innocent people scapegoated for a made up "turk" race

Yeah it was completely wrong, but it’s easy to judge the Turks in hindsight. At the time they needed to do anything necessary to protect their sovereignty. Orthodogs were doing the same shit as well

I think we’re too used to being refugees in another person’s land so you fail to understand why national sovereignty was so important back then that genocide was considered worth it. Having no land of your own or a state you belong in is the worst possible fate you can endure. Look at what Palestinians are going through getting uprooted from their ancestral realms, Turks are based as hell for noping that shit.

It’s better to be immoral in order to protect the lives and dignity of Muslims than play fair while the enemy does whatever they want to you.

 

[Pikacel]

So? Just because they were slightly less oppressive than others doesn't mean they weren't oppressive. "I only broke half of your bones, be grateful" jfl. And being tolerated is very different from having rights.

Irrelevant, arabs weren't apart of the millet system. If anything it only proves that they were targeting Arabs specifically since they could accomdate different religions and ethnic groups but not their "muslim brothers".
Also living comfortably doesn't mean you have political power, irrelevant point.

?? How is that not exploitation? Spell it out for me. It was efficient BECAUSE it centralized all power in Istanbul and took away power from everyone else. You are admitting that they kept their peripheries weak and dependent on purpose. Tax farming is peak exploitation, hollowing out the provinces and funneling it all towards the center.

Paying taxes isn’t exploitation

Every state did it. Besides before Ottomans, Arabs were run by Mamluks who practiced the same method of tax farming. It is what it is, Arabs were dependent on the protection of foreigners by then so at least let it them be Muslim foreigners

 

[Kshatriya]

Battle of Lepanto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Exalted Monarch]

It’s based off of this fallacy that the alternative to Turkish imperialism was independence (during the golden era of Western expansion)

You completely ignore that they had to deal with the entire Christendom at it’s peak power. If it weren’t for their efforts in defending the Ummah we’d probably all end up like the Philippines. So of course they had to consolidate Muslim polities to facilitate their brutal and constant defensive jihad against the kuffar. And so what if they did Sufi deviance, again it’s either become a slightly deviant Sufi or Catholic this purist utopian ideal wasn’t feasible at the time

Nothing more low IQ than this narrative of ‘muh my weak Arab tribe got raped a couple times by Turks’ you think Portugese colonists or Orthodox barbarians would’ve treated you any better? Arabs were weak at the time and couldn’t defend themselves, at least Turkish patronage allowed them to keep their religion.

Everyone nowadays wants muh independence for their 100 members 1 km strip of land owning tribe. It’s a joke

I couldn't have said it better myself. The Ottomans were mostly a force for good in the Middle East. Arabs who hate the Ottomans are hyper-fixated on the period of decline and ignore centuries of glory. When a great empire collapses, there is always bloodshed, tears and poverty. This is not a phenomenon unique to the Ottomans. Look at what the German people experienced after losing WW1.

 

[Exalted Monarch]

Nothing more low IQ than this narrative of ‘muh my weak Arab tribe got raped a couple times by Turks’ you think Portugese colonists or Orthodox barbarians would’ve treated you any better?

Just look at what the Spaniards did to the Muslims after the Reconquista. Nothing the Ottomans ever did to the Arabs even comes close to that.

 

[retributor]

Was the millet system ethnoreligious segregation?

 

[retributor]

I find it funny how every thread about the Turks/Ottomans instantly blows up with replies.

 

[Shaktiman]

as a Pajeet I'd take being ruled by a Turk over an Arab any day of the week.

 

[Small Balls Messiah]

DNR turk propaganda

 

[blackpillednigga]

I find it funny how every thread about the Turks/Ottomans instantly blows up with replies.

butthurt pajeets and hindu nuffin nationalists

 

[luciferiancel]

It doesn't matter, you're missing the point of submitting to God if you're nullifying your creed for political pragmatism, it's basically selling your afterlife for the sake of this life. There's no degrees of faith when it comes to major kufr. A sufi grave worshipper is no more muslim than a christian because they pray five times a day, you're either a muslim or a disbeliever- and if you practice shirk, whether directed to sufi saints, shia imams or Jesus, you're a disbeliever that will burn in hell forever, regardless of what you've done to benefit or protect actual muslims as the Ottomans may have.

What matters is the afterlife.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

There is no justification for the armenian genocide. Genuinely a lowIQ move that destroyed millions of lives and for what? Innocent people scapegoated for a made up "turk" race

Irrelevant to this thread. Also why are you painting all the caliphates with the same brush? Yes on one end you have the Umayyads who were racist as shit but on the other you have the Abbasids who were extremely inclusive of different ethnic groups in their territory, so much so that they even moved their capital from the arab Damascus to persian Baghdad

Literally, all the businesses in Istanbul were owned by Armenians and Greeks. The entire economy was in the hands of Greeks and Armenians. It's like how all the banks in the United States are owned by Jews today. Christians were not allowed to serve in the military, but they compensated for this through economic activities and trade.

 

[Anarcho Nihilist]

There is no justification for the armenian genocide. Genuinely a lowIQ move that destroyed millions of lives and for what? Innocent people scapegoated for a made up "turk" race

Irrelevant to this thread. Also why are you painting all the caliphates with the same brush? Yes on one end you have the Umayyads who were racist as shit but on the other you have the Abbasids who were extremely inclusive of different ethnic groups in their territory, so much so that they even moved their capital from the arab Damascus to persian Baghdad

Armenians supported the Russian Empire in the First World War. This was because Armenians sympathized with Russia as an enemy of the Ottomans and a nearby Christian empire.
Any state that starts a war against someone will try to eliminate its enemies within. When Operation Barbarossa began, Stalin immediately deported the Volga Germans to Kazakhstan. The Americans imprisoned the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. Everyone did this. The United States repressed the Germans in 1917 after the Zimmermann Telegram to Mexico.

 

[nico]

turkey lowkey fogs arabs to this day in terms of it's regional power and influence.

You won't differ with this statement by the end of this decade.

 

[Pikacel]

It doesn't matter, you're missing the point of submitting to God if you're nullifying your creed for political pragmatism, it's basically selling your afterlife for the sake of this life. There's no degrees of faith when it comes to major kufr. A sufi grave worshipper is no more muslim than a christian because they pray five times a day, you're either a muslim or a disbeliever- and if you practice shirk, whether directed to sufi saints, shia imams or Jesus, you're a disbeliever that will burn in hell forever, regardless of what you've done to benefit or protect actual muslims as the Ottomans may have.

What matters is the afterlife.

Wahhabist propaganda

Remember Turks put their life down to defend the Holy City while Arabs looted it like animals (with kuffar’s help). Yet Ottomans are somehow the deviants here Jfl

turkey lowkey fogs arabs to this day in terms of it's regional power and influence.

You won't differ with this statement by the end of this decade.

Turks don’t even have oil too

 

[nico]

oil