All men who identify as self-identified incels, or involuntary celibates, are misogynistic.

[InMemoriam]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1biodr5/cmv_all_men_who_identify_as_selfidentified_incels/

 

[WØLF]

To say that one is involuntarily celibate means that there are factors outside one's control that is forcing that individual to be celibate.

That doesn't follow. To be involuntarily celibate just means that one is celibate but one doesn't want to be celibate. A person can be in an undesired state even though it is within their control to exit that state.

First, it could be the case that the steps required to exit one's undesirable state are even more undesirable than the state itself. For example:

• A person can be homeless but want to not be homeless, but the steps required to become housed are even more undesirable (e.g., moving to an extremely poor area with low cost of living).
• A person can be unemployed but want to be employed, but the steps required to become employed are even more undesirable (e.g., by working a grueling, underpayed job).
• A person can be pregnant but want to not be pregnant, but the steps required to get an abortion are even more undesirable (e.g., by traveling to a country where abortions are legal, performing an illegal abortion, etc.).
• A person can be broke but want to have money today, but the steps required to get money today are even more undesirable (e.g., taking out loans with egregiously high interest, stealing from someone, etc.).
• A person can be hungry but want to no longer be hungry, but the steps required to alleviate their hunger are even more undesirable (e.g., they have to eat all of the remaining food, leaving their children hungry).

Likewise, someone may be celibate but not want to be celibate, but the steps required to have sex are even more undesirable. For example, it may be that one needs to pay a prostitute. Or perhaps one needs to have sex with very incompatible women (e.g., whether due to physical, psychological, or social reasons). A person who doesn't want to do these things would still not want to be celibate, for the same reasons a pregnant women might not want to be pregnant even though they also don't want to perform an illegal abortion.

Second, even if the steps required to exit an undesirable state are not themselves undesirable, a person might not be aware of those steps. For example, a poor child might want scholarships for college, and it might be in their control to get certain scholarships, but they might not know how to get those scholarships because they weren't properly educated. Likewise, an incel might not know what steps to take to have sex with a women in a way that is not even more undesirable than being celibate.

Then the question becomes what is that factor? There seems to be two: 1. women are out to make sure men can't get sex, 2. there are characteristics built into a person (ugly, fat, etc.) that mean no woman will want to have sex with them. Point 1 is misogynistic because it assumes that women think as a hivemind and are behaving in a very similar manner. Point 2 is also misogynistic because it assumes that there are characteristics that all women find undesirable.

Neither of these points have to be true, even if we assume that someone is an incel for factors outside of their control. For example, someone could be an incel because they posses traits which are unattractive to all of the single women that they've encountered. This doesn't imply that one possess traits that are unattractive to all women. There may be some women attracted to an incel, but those women are not available for whatever reason, e.g. they are already in a relationship, they never had a chance to meet the incel because there are such a small number of such women, etc. Further, it could be that an incel hasmet a single woman that was attracted to them, but the relationship ended before having sex because they just turned out to be incompatible.

 

[Bianor]

 

[VersoffenerAssi]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1biodr5/cmv_all_men_who_identify_as_selfidentified_incels/

And I'm proud of it.

 

[Fatass3000]

"because it assumes there are characteristics that all women find undesirable"
"don't worry sweetie, only 99.9% of woman find asymmetrical faces unattractive!"

 

[opioidcel]

That doesn't follow. To be involuntarily celibate just means that one is celibate but one doesn't want to be celibate. A person can be in an undesired state even though it is within their control to exit that state.

First, it could be the case that the steps required to exit one's undesirable state are even more undesirable than the state itself. For example:

• A person can be homeless but want to not be homeless, but the steps required to become housed are even more undesirable (e.g., moving to an extremely poor area with low cost of living).
• A person can be unemployed but want to be employed, but the steps required to become employed are even more undesirable (e.g., by working a grueling, underpayed job).
• A person can be pregnant but want to not be pregnant, but the steps required to get an abortion are even more undesirable (e.g., by traveling to a country where abortions are legal, performing an illegal abortion, etc.).
• A person can be broke but want to have money today, but the steps required to get money today are even more undesirable (e.g., taking out loans with egregiously high interest, stealing from someone, etc.).
• A person can be hungry but want to no longer be hungry, but the steps required to alleviate their hunger are even more undesirable (e.g., they have to eat all of the remaining food, leaving their children hungry).

Likewise, someone may be celibate but not want to be celibate, but the steps required to have sex are even more undesirable. For example, it may be that one needs to pay a prostitute. Or perhaps one needs to have sex with very incompatible women (e.g., whether due to physical, psychological, or social reasons). A person who doesn't want to do these things would still not want to be celibate, for the same reasons a pregnant women might not want to be pregnant even though they also don't want to perform an illegal abortion.

Second, even if the steps required to exit an undesirable state are not themselves undesirable, a person might not be aware of those steps. For example, a poor child might want scholarships for college, and it might be in their control to get certain scholarships, but they might not know how to get those scholarships because they weren't properly educated. Likewise, an incel might not know what steps to take to have sex with a women in a way that is not even more undesirable than being celibate.

Neither of these points have to be true, even if we assume that someone is an incel for factors outside of their control. For example, someone could be an incel because they posses traits which are unattractive to all of the single women that they've encountered. This doesn't imply that one possess traits that are unattractive to all women. There may be some women attracted to an incel, but those women are not available for whatever reason, e.g. they are already in a relationship, they never had a chance to meet the incel because there are such a small number of such women, etc. Further, it could be that an incel hasmet a single woman that was attracted to them, but the relationship ended before having sex because they just turned out to be incompatible.

this niggas argument is that it isnt true because its.. misogynistic? what kinda argument is that lmfao when youre refuting something based on the fact that it is "misogynistic" while providing no factual counter arguments to whats actually being argued jfl

 

[ElliotMogger]

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1biodr5/cmv_all_men_who_identify_as_selfidentified_incels/

hell yeah, I am