Welcome to Incels.is - Involuntary Celibate Forum

Welcome! This is a forum for involuntary celibates: people who lack a significant other. Are you lonely and wish you had someone in your life? You're not alone! Join our forum and talk to people just like you.

Neither matter nor energy is fundamental.

B

based_meme

I.N.C.E.L. High Command, Psychological Operations
★★★★★
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Posts
33,803
Consciousness. That is fundamental.

The principle of infinite indivisibility, as applied to both matter and energy, can (in principle) reduce to a singular, indivisible object or unit of existence. Present-day science has revealed a number of elementary and fundamental particles that are thought to be indivisible, but it is not yet known if this is true and if there might exist yet another layer of reality to be unpeeled. Technically, fundamental and elementary are separate classifications of different subatomic particles, however I will use the terms interchangeably.

The fundamentality of consciousness is a resultant corollary from the adoption of the concept of the necessary existent in Avicenna's Proof of the Truthful argument. In his proof (by contradiction), Avicenna argues that two necessary existents cannot have distinguishing parts which would separate and identify them. For if they did, then these distinguishing parts would be shared, and thus fundamental and indistinguisable as necessary existents. Hence, the contradiction. Therefore, there exists only one necessary existent.

Applying the logic of this reasoning and its conclusion to our reality yields that there must necessarily be one shared substance or essense which underlies the rest of material existence. This is a simple proof of panpsychism, yet it does not preclude God as a necessary existent, since one of God's properties include being the first cause. This results in a paradox whereby the first cause by the nessary existent results in the causation of a fundamental aspect of creation that underlies the rest of creation (points and endpoints in the causal chain), giving us more than one necessary existent.

In order to avoid this potential paradox we must choose one of two possibilities: 1) pansychism is true and consciousess is the unary, underlying aspect, or 2) God exists.

The second possibility has implications that may be unsettling. One such implication is that we are, in fact, not conscious. Furthermore, this would also imply that consciouness does not actually exist and is truly an illusion.

In the interest of saving time and energy, I have taken judicious liberty with the reasoning and arguments (read: skipping) that result in the choices to resolve the paradox. I will leave this as an exercise for the reader.

This may be an argument against deism, if one wants to argue that consciousness is a real phenomenon that occurs in us.

Fuck.
 
Last edited:
All incorrect you all connected to me via PATHS
I am the true incel of all incels and therefore you are all me
@erenyeager look at this guy
Nigga! Is he us


I think he is
 
Actually @erenyeager is right no shitposting. Me and myself and I have believed we are the center of everything which technically defaults to religious principle and a scientific principle. You opened my eyes


Paths and The brain in a vat is my religious way to go. Holy shit.


I’ll organize a book so all incels can pray to @erenyeager these matirx niggers can’t hold my godly brain in a vat forever
 
Last edited:
Too much for my brain, bump
 
Panpsychism is a theory that makes the most sense to me. Maybe in a certain way objects are also conscious - but their level of consciousness is rather mundane. The more complex a structure is, the more conscious it can become, and brains are extremely complex organ.

In a way it makes sense to me that consciousness is emitted through the universe like a radio wave and physical matter picks it up. Brains don't create the consciousness and reality, they just filter it.
 
Step away from the vocabulary bro... You've had enough.

Lawyer classes are down the hall.
 
Panpsychism is a theory that makes the most sense to me. Maybe in a certain way objects are also conscious - but their level of consciousness is rather mundane. The more complex a structure is, the more conscious it can become, and brains are extremely complex organ.

In a way it makes sense to me that consciousness is emitted through the universe like a radio wave and physical matter picks it up. Brains don't create the consciousness and reality, they just filter it.
It can be true that panpsychism is true (where the mind is fundamental in the Platonic sense) and also consciousness is not fundamental (in the real sense). The two are not mutually exclusive. This is proved by the nonuniqueness of consciousness - a property shared amongst all of us. The error in my reasoning was that because consciousness is a shared, underlying characteristic, it must be fundamental, and that's where I started off with the conclusion that turned out to be false. To be fundamental it must be unique.

I think consciousness is derivative and that the source (of consciousness) is fundamental. Whatever caused or created consciousness must be its source and that this source must be unique. That whatever is what we typically understand as God. The paradox does not exist, because the conclusion that consciousness is fundamental is false.
 
Panpsychism is a theory that makes the most sense to me. Maybe in a certain way objects are also conscious - but their level of consciousness is rather mundane. The more complex a structure is, the more conscious it can become, and brains are extremely complex organ.

In a way it makes sense to me that consciousness is emitted through the universe like a radio wave and physical matter picks it up. Brains don't create the consciousness and reality, they just filter it.
I don't think OP is arguing that matter is conscious but that it IS consciousness itself. (Don't know if there is a difference between the two.)

I take issue with consciousness being emitted through the universe because we can't really tell that all minds experience the world the same. Infact there's good reason to believe that different brain biologies experience difference things
 
The fundamentality of consciousness is a resultant corollary from the adoption of the concept of the necessary existent in Avicenna's Proof of the Truthful argument. In his proof (by contradiction), Avicenna argues that two necessary existents cannot have distinguishing parts which would separate and identify them. For if they did, then these distinguishing parts would be shared, and thus fundamental and indistinguisable as necessary existents. Hence, the contradiction. Therefore, there exists only one necessary existent.
I had to consult Wikipedia to understand that you were arguing what is the former possibility in their writeup.
He argues that the necessary existent must be unique, using a proof by contradiction, or reductio, showing that a contradiction would follow if one supposes that there were more than one necessary existent. If one postulates two necessary existents, A and B, a simplified version of the argument considers two possibilities: if A is distinct from B as a result of something implied from necessity of existence, then B would share it, too (being a necessary existent itself), and the two are not distinct after all. If, on the other hand, the distinction resulted from something not implied by necessity of existence, then this individuating factor will be a cause for A, and this means that A has a cause and is not a necessary existent after all. Either way, the opposite proposition resulted in contradiction, which to Avicenna proves the correctness of the argument.
But even still, why would an individuating factor resulting from something not implied by necessity of existence be a cause? this shit is way too woolly
 
But even still, why would an individuating factor resulting from something not implied by necessity of existence be a cause? this shit is way too woolly
It all simplifies to:

If necessary existent, then uncaused and is the cause of not necessary existents.
If not necessary existent, then caused.
 
Quantum tunneling s going to happen and your consciousness will somehow manisfest again. GGEZ.
 
Screenshot 12 14 2024 011749
 
It all simplifies to:

If necessary existent, then uncaused and is the cause of not necessary existents.
If not necessary existent, then caused.
I had understood the definitions, thanks.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

shape1
shape2
shape3
shape4
shape5
shape6
Back
Top