MGTOW and Incel: Two Perspectives On the Value of the Validation of Women

[hirayama_ronin]

I'm non-incel, red to black pill, who wandered in here from r/braincels. I'm anti-feminist and am working through the various facets of men's counter-movement. Lately we've seen a lot of superficial interest in Incels because of Toronto. But that's not me.

My plan is not to post a lot, but I do want to get your opinion on a few things. Now I would like to discuss my perspective on the Incel black pill from the perspective of MGTOW. This might be something you have heard before, so bear with me. Please post links to previous conversations or other resources, preferably not Youtube.

One of the virtues of MGTOW as I see it is that it nullifies the validating power of women. It says, whatever you do, whether you are celibate or not, you should not derive your value from women. Going your own way means moving on from the assumption that women are worth the trouble, and building a different life.

When I look at Incel, I think it's an idea trapped in a failed PUA game. All the value remains with women, and the blackpill is derived from failing to win them. Incel boxes itself in, and the only way out is the rope. Without a woman, man is nothing.

As an anti-feminist I must admit this rubs me the wrong way. It is men who have made civilization, have invented practically everything, have built practically everything, have created the organizations and sustained them over centuries. The idea women are the sole validators of men is insulting and wrong, imo. No man has become famous for his work with women.

By making celibacy voluntary, MGTOW offers a way of accepting the black pill while avoiding both the blue pill and the rope. It's like Buddhism. The Buddha was the first black piller. He said human existence is fundamentally suffering. But he also offered a way out that offered peace of mind.

What is your opinion of MGTOW, and do you think MGTOW offers a path that responds to the black pill?

 

[Blackpill101]

MGTOW = less sub8s for women to choose from = benefits women

It's literally the best cope an incel can have. However you're purely delusional if you think that it will change how women behave or act. Unless all Chads go MGTOW, nothing will happen.

Establishing a patriarchal fascistic system that eliminates degeneracy and hypergamy is the true solution.

 

[_incelinside]

MSTOW

 

[catfishman23]

all mgtows do is cope. ive talked to a mgtow all he did was cope on everything
pua, prostitution, and working on yourself.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

all mgtows do is cope. ive talked to a mgtow all he did was cope on everything
pua, prostitution, and working on yourself.

So, from your perspective, the Incel blackpill is the truth MGTOWs are running from?

 

[Fontaine]

you can’t even be classified as a “man going his own way” if you’re involuntarily celibate. it’s not like you were ever part of the pool or had a chance in the first place. you’re still the same unwanted wretch that you were before. at best, you were sent your own way. considering yourself to be voluntarily celibate just because you started calling yourself “MGTOW” when you can’t get laid even if you try is pure delusion and makes zero sense.

 

[catfishman23]

So, from your perspective, the Incel blackpill is the truth MGTOWs are running from?

yes, even if mgtows do complain why cant they just take the blackpill whats any different?

 

[th62eathhts2]

mtgow subreddit shares alot of users with trp. it is filled with roleplayers. also jfl at them posting pictures of their day like 16 year old foids seeking validation online.

 

[Blackpill101]

all mgtows do is cope. ive talked to a mgtow all he did was cope on everything
pua, prostitution, and working on yourself.

JFL at these MGTOW cucks thinking that Chad will go his own way for most men in general.

 

[Blackpill101]

So, from your perspective, the Incel blackpill is the truth MGTOWs are running from?

MGTOW is just a coping movement which believes (indirectly) that by leaving women behind, they'll magically change their nature into becoming submissive, loyal beings.

In reality, this would only increase hypergamy as women are able to choose from a pool of even less sub8 males.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

you can’t even be classified as a “man going his own way” if you’re involuntarily celibate. it’s not like you were ever part of the pool or had a chance in the first place. you’re still the same unwanted wretch that you were before. at best, you were sent your own way. considering yourself to be voluntarily celibate just because you started calling yourself “MGTOW” when you can’t get laid even if you try is pure delusion and makes zero sense.

From the Buddhist perspective, nobody can escape the fact all human existence is suffering. And yet Buddhism provides a different perspective on that suffering that offers a way out. The whole point of a different perspective is that it changes the rules of the game.

You're not wrong that Incels are defined by their involuntary celibacy. But it's also not wrong that some people can embrace that and move on, if offered the right reasons. Someone can be involuntarily celibate and choose to go their own way.

also, it’s easier said that done for healthy adult males to “just stop caring” about females and accept that they’ll die unloved.

I totally agree. As someone who experieced sexual exclusion in my teens and early 20s, I can honestly say everything Incels claim to be experiencing is true. I remember the years of 18-21 as being the worst years of my life. Nevertheless, it behooves us to think of ways forward.

In another post I will discuss the changes I made in my life.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

MGTOW is just a coping movement which believes (indirectly) that by leaving women behind, they'll magically change their nature into becoming submissive, loyal beings.

In reality, this would only increase hypergamy as women are able to choose from a pool of even less sub8 males.

I'm not sure if I agree that this is the view of MGTOW. The men who have really been burned by women go their own way not because they believe women are going to change, but because they want to live their lives in peace. Most MGTOWs do it without a deeper political intention. It is not like a protest seeking specific changes. It's fuck you.

As far as women changing their natures, I'm in agreement with you. Feminism is destroying society, and we have a long way to go. Nothing is likely to change for 20 years, and the changes will not come about because of MGTOW, or Incel for that matter. Both of these configurations are symptoms of societal decline.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

yes, even if mgtows do complain why cant they just take the blackpill whats any different?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

mtgow subreddit shares alot of users with trp. it is filled with roleplayers. also jfl at them posting pictures of their day like 16 year old foids seeking validation online.

You're not wrong.

 

[hirayama_ronin]

However you're purely delusional if you think that it will change how women behave or act. Unless all Chads go MGTOW, nothing will happen.

One of the attractive things about MGTOW is that it isn't determined by any specific outcome except men going their own way, which is wildly indeterminate. It could be anything, except latching onto a woman. So it's not like MRA who devise specific legal remedies and seek allies among... women (sigh)... It's not the PUA scene where pumping and dumping is the point. It avoids the box Incels paint themselves into.

I don't see MGTOW as a monolithic thing. I think there is the possibility of an Incel MGTOW perspective that could be useful to some people. Obviously not for you, and that's okay.

I guess I agree with you that MGTOW can't solve the problem Incel's face. I'm certainly not saying that Incel is not real, and MGTOW is the solution. Rather, I wonder if it can engage Incel's deeper assumptions about the value of women in our lives. Not solve. Engage.

Establishing a patriarchal fascistic system that eliminates degeneracy and hypergamy is the true solution.

I won't say I agree with you, but it does appear that women individually need strong men in their lives. Maybe collectively that is true as well.

 

[Robtical]

I hate the mgtows that tell others to give up on pussy as a way to happiness, even though they can't get pussy themselves and don't know how happiness would be like being able to get laid.

 

[EthnicelNL]

Most MGTOW are volcels. They are bitter because they have seen womens personalities up close. Totally different from incels. Give an incel a 10/10 female and he wouldnt know how to handle her.

 

[IsolationHurts]

By making celibacy voluntary, MGTOW offers a way of accepting the black pill while avoiding both the blue pill and the rope. It's like Buddhism. The Buddha was the first black piller. He said human existence is fundamentally suffering. But he also offered a way out that offered peace of mind.

I agree. As a former buddhist, i must say that buddhism has lots of black pilled ideas (from our actual point of view)

you can’t even be classified as a “man going his own way” if you’re involuntarily celibate. it’s not like you were ever part of the pool or had a chance in the first place. you’re still the same unwanted wretch that you were before. at best, you were sent your own way. considering yourself to be voluntarily celibate just because you started calling yourself “MGTOW” when you can’t get laid even if you try is pure delusion and makes zero sense.

also, it’s easier said than done for healthy adult males to “just stop caring” about females and accept that they’ll die a virgin that has never experienced intimacy in their life.

Basically this. As a 27 y.o. virgin, i would do anything in order to get any kind of female validation, but i tried it all and nothing works and, probably, nothing will work. So its delusional to think that i can "refuse", that i can "oppose" my own desire of female attention of any kind.

In my opinion, MGTOW are males that objectively have more chances than the usual incels. Most of them have had sex, or even a gf, before going MGTOW. Incels, at least most of them, have never touched a female, and some of us are not only ugly, but aspies, jobless, friendles....
Incels lack hope, and its not a choice. It is just the way the world has made us.

Anyway, if i could delude myself and join MGTOW i would obviously. Everything is better than depression and suicide.

 

[SlappyDippySlim]

I'm what could be argued as a mentalcel as i wrestle with complications with a form of Bipolar Disorder and i've noticed there seems to be a majority of MGTOW that mentally function well in society. With fewer mental complications its easier to have and carry a more positive attitude about the women situation. But with things like chronic deppression and the dulling effects of prolonged isolation its not so easy to just simply be positive and go out and skullfuck society......am i wrong in this obsevation?

 

[IsolationHurts]

I'm what could be argued as a mentalcel as i wrestle with complications with a form of Bipolar Disorder and i've noticed there seems to be a majority of MGTOW that mentally function well in society. With fewer mental complications its easier to have and carry a more positive attitude about the women situation. But with things like chronic deppression and the dulling effects of prolonged isolation its not so easy to just simply be positive and go out and skullfuck society......am i wrong in this obsevation?

You are not wrong. After years of depression and social isolation i know i will be an outcast the rest of my life. I dont think i can do anything to avoid it by now.

 

[SlappyDippySlim]

You are not wrong. After years of depression and social isolation i know i will be an outcast the rest of my life. I dont think i can do anything to avoid it by now.

avoiding it may be impossible but there are multiple things that can be done about it. if happiness can't be found externally then it must be something that you make for yourself. if the only remotely good thing in a day you find is the first drink of a can of soda or watching skallagrim videos on youtube and it gave you a slight little nudge of mild amusement then you've experienced happiness and proved your day means everything good......hope that makes helpful sense.

 

[Spec Carrot]

MGTOW is, as far as I have seen it, an idealised and arrogant movement that pretends that each man is capable of achieving something provided he is willing to pour himself into it. I tend to find this is blindingly naive at best and willingly dishonest at worst.
I think the movement focuses too much on superficial and hilariously fedora-tipper ideas of what a man should do. I think when I read posts by self proclaimed MGTOW supporters claiming to be interested in philosophy, sociology, high culture...I can't help but roll my eyes slightly when I see the Anime reaction image profile picture that normally accompanies such posts. I find Incels are, for the most part, far more honest about the state of things...I believe that they view the world in a more grounded sense and don't generally follow the mantras of mock-self-improvement for the sake of it.

I think MGTOW likes to offer a charade of sophistication and independence in the hopes of duping people into a false sense of superiority, whereas Incel tends to allow and offer people the chance to lament on their own failures and the failure of a modern society and then step out of it while maintaining a realistic outlook.