(Introspective) Take the cultural context pill

[shii410]

Incels have a tendency to assign massive amounts of value to arbitrary cultural constructs without ever considering why, or that these things are in fact just cultural constructs and not the fundamental law of the universe

If you lived in feudal Japan then having an estranged relationship with your parents would be the equivalent of being a KHHVPHSTJF Truecel and it’d be the type of thing that you base your entire identity and worldview around and want to kill yourself over. But in modern Anglo culture it’s not a big deal at all or even something that you would think about on a daily basis. Evidently such cultural notions are not fundamental to human nature and it’s just something that people believe in

The same principle applies to the modern cultural significance of sex. That’s the issue with the sex centric worldview. The fact is that the subjective perceptions of normies and foids who you don’t even respect in theory are not literally the word of God. And evidently most incels would not be suicidally depressed over the topic of sex if it were completely removed from arbitrary social connotations. What you conclude from that information is up to you, but either way you can see where the problem arises

The only meaningful retort to this is “Humans are social animals so I have to be constantly upset over bullshit that doesn’t exist, as dictated by the lizard brain” which is an extremely cucked and unrespectable mindset

 

[kikecel]

nigga not gonna do this conversation again thats some IT-level ZOGged and cucked mindset

 

[ReconElement]

Sex and a woman's touch creates fundamental changes in you, biochemically speaking, it's not something cultural or relative, it's absolute, universal and objective, every human alive strives for it and it's expected in every society that a man has to have a wife and a family, to be considered a part of society, what post Industrial West European worldview says is that every man doesn't deserve it and a woman has complete discretion to sleep around and not marry. Plus your parent's name mattered in all feudal societies Japan is not a special case, if your father banished you off his titles and holdings you were fked in a feudal society.

 

[Air]

I think in any non-capitalist, pre-neoliberal, non-western society i would have simply been bullied into suicide or locked in some mental asylum for life.
As it should be

 

[shii410]

Sex and a woman's touch creates fundamental changes in you, biochemically speaking, it's not something cultural or relative, it's absolute, universal and objective, every human alive strives for it and it's expected in every society that a man has to have a wife and a family, to be considered a part of society, what post Industrial West European worldview says is that every man doesn't deserve it and a woman has complete discretion to sleep around and not marry. Plus your parent's name mattered in all feudal societies Japan is not a special case, if your father banished you off his titles and holdings you were fked in a feudal society.

It’s obviously natural to want to have sex but sex being the ultimate metric of mens value and success + sexlessness being irreconcilably correlated with an antisocial or dysfunctional character (and shit like how “you get no bitches” or some variant is everyday vocabulary for zoomers) is definitely cultural. There’s plenty of documented cases beyond the past ~100 years of history where the cultural stance on sex was less prominent or the exact opposite

The social aspect of familial relationships is a lot more prominent in East Asian cultures, generally speaking your family will be the main people you interact with throughout your life in that environment especially in that time period so it goes far beyond just financial inheritance. Conversely it’s pretty normal in Anglo countries to not routinely interact with your family at all and it’s definitely not something that’s particularly expected of you or that other people will care about

 

[kikecel]

Sex and a woman's touch creates fundamental changes in you, biochemically speaking, it's not something cultural or relative, it's absolute, universal and objective, every human alive strives for it and it's expected in every society that a man has to have a wife and a family, to be considered a part of society, what post Industrial West European worldview says is that every man doesn't deserve it and a woman has complete discretion to sleep around and not marry. Plus your parent's name mattered in all feudal societies Japan is not a special case, if your father banished you off his titles and holdings you were fked in a feudal society.

I personally know a person that ascended so to speak, he turned 180, from a doomer that wanted to kill himself all the time to a person with hopes and dreams and motivation to progress in life. relationship is everything.

 

[ReconElement]

The social aspect of familial relationships is a lot more prominent in East Asian cultures, generally speaking your family will be the main people you interact with throughout your life in that environment especially in that time period so it goes far beyond just financial inheritance. Conversely it’s pretty normal in Anglo countries to not routinely interact with your family at all and it’s definitely not something that’s particularly expected of you or that other people will care about

The familial relationship in East Asia is different from West Europe cos Western Europe has been industrialised for far longer than East Asian societies, Industrialisation increases per capita income so much so than agrarian socieities that you don't need the extensive social security networks from your kin and family to survive without sinking into abject poverty, you can find the importance of family much more in recently industrialised or agrarian parts of Europe like say Southern Italy or say Greece or Spain more than you'd find in Northern European societies cos they Industrialised much later. The familial structure of East Asia is a remnant of its agrarian past, it'll die its natural death in a few generations or most probably it has already.

 

[ReconElement]

I personally know a person that ascended so to speak, he turned 180, from a doomer that wanted to kill himself all the time to a person with hopes and dreams and motivation to progress in life. relationship is everything.

Yea, it's a big deal, it causes fundamental bio chemical and even metabolic changes in your body, the feeling of "love" as normies say it, as incels we never knew what that is, perhaps we will never know as well.

 

[shii410]

I personally know a person that ascended so to speak, he turned 180, from a doomer that wanted to kill himself all the time to a person with hopes and dreams and motivation to progress in life. relationship is everything.

The thing is that you’re just making surface level observations instead of asking yourself what it actually is about pussy that gives you hopes and dreams and motivation, and whether pussy is actually a fundamental prerequisite to having those things or if that’s just a cultural meme

Warrior and spiritual castes being celibate has actually been relatively standard policy throughout the history of human civilization so it’s clear that being antisocial and unproductive and shit isn’t a natural universal byproduct of not having sex

 

[sub8male]

It's not just incels who do this though, everyone does this. Plenty of normies become suicidal when they get dumped by their girlfriends. Even Chads are constantly chasing after foids to up their notch counts.

Another thing is the social dynamics revolving around sex are determined by the culture. For example look how normies view casual sex, they see it as totally normal, and they also look down on early marriage. Meanwhile in the past, they would see sex outside of marriage as a major crime and encourage people to get married early. If some normie wanted to marry a young virgin girl, he would be screwed because the society he lives in would affect his chances.

The only meaningful retort to this is “Humans are social animals so I have to be constantly upset over bullshit that doesn’t exist, as dictated by the lizard brain” which is an extremely cucked and unrespectable mindset

What exactly 'doesn't exist' though? Our sex lives don't exist, and we can't just not be affected by our environment unless we become hermits (well, lots of people on this forum are hermits tbh).

 

[the.oracle]

Humans are a product of their genetics and the era (environment, zeitgeist) in which they are born. For instance, in 2022 no man will ever be able to experience something such as the zeitgeist of the Roman empire with androcentric harems of prime slave cunny or arranged marriages in which women were treated as property.

 

[shii410]

What exactly 'doesn't exist' though? Our sex lives don't exist, and we can't just not be affected by our environment unless we become hermits (well, lots of people on this forum are hermits tbh).

Don’t get me wrong, the fact that something is a made up concept with no intrinsic backing in reality doesn’t mean that it can’t affect you. If everyone else on Earth were to believe in something arbitrarily, it’d still inevitably have a practical impact on your life. It wouldn’t make it the objective truth though, and you would still be under no obligation to accept it as the unconditional law of the universe and center your whole worldview around it

 

[sub8male]

Don’t get me wrong, the fact that something is a made up concept with no intrinsic backing in reality doesn’t mean that it can’t affect you. If everyone else on Earth were to believe in something arbitrarily, it’d still inevitably have a practical impact on your life. It wouldn’t make it the objective truth though, and you would still be under no obligation to accept it as the unconditional law of the universe and center your whole worldview around it

What is the made up concept exactly? It's not sex. Are you talking male virginity? In the past only women were considered virgins.

 

[shii410]

What is the made up concept exactly? It's not sex. Are you talking male virginity? In the past only women were considered virgins.

Essentially what I just described here

sex being the ultimate metric of mens value and success + sexlessness being irreconcilably correlated with an antisocial or dysfunctional character (and shit like how “you get no bitches” or some variant is everyday vocabulary for zoomers) is definitely cultural. There’s plenty of documented cases beyond the past ~100 years of history where the cultural stance on sex was less prominent or the exact opposite
View attachment 639732

It’s also worth noting that outside the basic aspect of sex, the whole expectation of men having emotionally intimate and interpersonal relationships with women is something that is not universal across cultures (even while they act as child-bearers and homemakers)

 

[Don Vito]

For this reason I exiled myself in fb groups, youtube and subreddits that are about my copes.

It´s saddens me sometimes someone uses "incel" or "virgin" terms as insults to water down other people arguments, even if these have nothing to do with women. But is less painful than normie tier tiktok and other entertainment media. Even than blackpill community itself.

 

[Emba]

wth does zog mean

The shared knowledge of the whole world is available, yet the zog still prevents you from knowledge!

 

[Emba]

i like it. zog>>>kike

Zion occupied government

 

[Emba]

ya i looked it up. it's a cool term. honestly sounds too funny and cool to be associated with zionist scum.

Yes. They ruin everything

 

[BraincelsRefugee]

wth does zog mean

Zionist Occupied Government

 

[kikecel]

The thing is that you’re just making surface level observations instead of asking yourself what it actually is about pussy that gives you hopes and dreams and motivation, and whether pussy is actually a fundamental prerequisite to having those things or if that’s just a cultural meme

Warrior and spiritual castes being celibate has actually been relatively standard policy throughout the history of human civilization so it’s clear that being antisocial and unproductive and shit isn’t a natural universal byproduct of not having sex

Who the fuck cares, people that over analyze things tend to kill themselves at the end

 

[Izayacel]

nigga not gonna do this conversation again thats some IT-level ZOGged and cucked mindset

Your still around ? Kek

 

[curryboy420]

The thing is that you’re just making surface level observations instead of asking yourself what it actually is about pussy that gives you hopes and dreams and motivation, and whether pussy is actually a fundamental prerequisite to having those things or if that’s just a cultural meme

Warrior and spiritual castes being celibate has actually been relatively standard policy throughout the history of human civilization so it’s clear that being antisocial and unproductive and shit isn’t a natural universal byproduct of not having sex

Yeah every warrior ever in history has never had a wife how right you are

 

[kikecel]

Your still around ? Kek

never left

 

[Deleted member 40252]

Sex and a woman's touch creates fundamental changes in you

 

[HeimatVertrieben]

Yeah every warrior ever in history has never had a wife how right you are

The thing is back in those days soldiers could just rape women while on campaign and get away with it

 

[Mecoja]

If we didnt live in hypersexual times where people wear bodycounts as badge of honor, yeah average incel would concentrate on other problems more because he would feel like less of a failure because of lack of sexual life. But eventually everything would creep up on him and he would still be lonely and touch hungry. Still alone and childless with no one to pass on his genes. Those things are not a social construct or maybe they are, the fuck would know.

 

[sub8male]

[STUDY] Human touch makes us feel happy and relaxed, couples sleeping together have better REM sleep, autistic people are hormonally sleep impaired

"Why do you care about sex and relationships??? :soy::soy:" Simply sleeping in the same bed as your gf/wife will improve your sleep. Simply being touched by someone will release hormones that will relax you, make you feel happy and positive and thus also help you to sleep "Bed-Sharing in...

incels.is

Seems relationships help people do better in life.

 

[shii410]

Seems relationships help people do better in life.

Ask yourself why though. That’s the whole point

There’s literally no question about the fact that modern society is incredibly sex-centric and being respected by normies depends on it but that’s not the point of contention here

 

[Indari]

the chemical reactions that take place when one is in a loving relationship isn't socially constructed

 

[sub8male]

Ask yourself why though. That’s the whole point

There’s literally no question about the fact that modern society is incredibly sex-centric and being respected by normies depends on it but that’s not the point of contention here

the chemical reactions that take place when one is in a loving relationship isn't socially constructed

this. Pair bonding is not a social construct.

 

[shii410]

the chemical reactions that take place when one is in a loving relationship isn't socially constructed

this. Pair bonding is not a social construct.

Sex isn’t unique in this regard because the exact same evopsych argument could be made about paternal/familial relationships which are undoubtedly subject to cultural relativity

“Loving relationships” in the monogamous romantic sense are even more intangible, they didn’t exist until a few thousand years ago so there’s no way that they’re fundamental to humanity. There’s even more cultural variance in regards to this aspect

 

[ServusLuciferi]

Incels have a tendency to assign massive amounts of value to arbitrary cultural constructs without ever considering why, or that these things are in fact just cultural constructs and not the fundamental law of the universe

If you lived in feudal Japan then having an estranged relationship with your parents would be the equivalent of being a KHHVPHSTJF Truecel and it’d be the type of thing that you base your entire identity and worldview around and want to kill yourself over. But in modern Anglo culture it’s not a big deal at all or even something that you would think about on a daily basis. Evidently such cultural notions are not fundamental to human nature and it’s just something that people believe in

The same principle applies to the modern cultural significance of sex. That’s the issue with the sex centric worldview. The fact is that the subjective perceptions of normies and foids who you don’t even respect in theory are not literally the word of God. And evidently most incels would not be suicidally depressed over the topic of sex if it were completely removed from arbitrary social connotations. What you conclude from that information is up to you, but either way you can see where the problem arises

The only meaningful retort to this is “Humans are social animals so I have to be constantly upset over bullshit that doesn’t exist, as dictated by the lizard brain” which is an extremely cucked and unrespectable mindset

Let’s assume this social-engineering constructionist bullshit (which is bullshit) is real, for the sake of argument.

…And?

We still partake in a culture where your primary metric of success as a man is pussy, and as a woman is being a mom by age 35. That’s it.

You can cope all you want about it being “constructed” and “illusionary”, but it doesn’t mean that you are suddenly free from the consequences of ignoring it.

The words we speak are a construction by your logic. We are apes making random sounds with our throat and lips. You can’t then just say “assuming dictionary definitions and alphabets is a cucked mindset” and refuse to talk to other people, being a spergy recluse who spits random noises till death. That’s not how life works. There are consequences for ignoring such “constructions”

If you are a Virgin male at the age of 23+, you are perma-socially excluded. Period. Friends don’t want to be around you, your family doesn’t respect you, even your Priest will passive aggressively view you as weird, and no woman will touch you unless they feel like they can financially get something from you. You can hide it to a degree, but eventually - because sex is all that matters - it will come up and your friends will discover either your lack of interest or inexperience and then cut you off from any meaningful relationship.

The only people who will welcome you are truly autistic people who aren’t able to provide meaningful social worth or self-esteem anyways, because they will be less functional and self-denigrating more than you are.

Your only option then is coping till you die in 50 years of agonizing pain, or suicide. Two options.

Simply saying “it’s a construction” won’t change it.

Who in the West is going to change it anyways assuming that you can (you can’t, fucking is a part of every single religious and cultural tradition in human history)? If you vocalize the issues in which men are discriminated and treated like disposable garbage such that the bottom 40% genetically (I would say the bottom 70%) cope with video games, Marvel movies, and other stupid bullshit, people will shut you down and socially punish you further.

Constructionist theory is bullshit anyways. A cheetah’s hunger for rabbits can’t be reconstructed to veganism. Human beings love fucking to produce more offspring. It will be a part of every culture regardless. In fact the human animal exists only to survive and infinitely reproduce, anything more goes to coping or supernatural assumptions.

 

[sub8male]

Sex isn’t unique in this regard because the exact same evopsych argument could be made about paternal/familial relationships which are undoubtedly subject to cultural relativity

“Loving relationships” in the monogamous romantic sense are even more intangible, they didn’t exist until a few thousand years ago so there’s no way that they’re fundamental to humanity. There’s even more cultural variance in regards to this aspect

Who claimed it was an "evopsych argument"?

How is loving relationships "intangible", when there are studies about how they benefit you? The study literally shows how it helps improve your sleep. I could also show studies about how your lifespan is increased when you are a man and date a younger woman.

Marrying a Younger Woman Helps Men Live Longer – HealthGuidance.org

www.healthguidance.org

This study clearly shows that sex, particularly good sex with a younger woman, helps men to live longer, that isn't some social construct, it's biology rewarding men for going after the most desirable partners.

 

[shii410]

Let’s assume this social-engineering constructionist bullshit (which is bullshit) is real, for the sake of argument.

…And?

We still partake in a culture where your primary metric of success as a man is pussy, and as a woman is being a mom by age 35. That’s it.

You can cope all you want about it being “constructed” and “illusionary”, but it doesn’t mean that you are suddenly free from the consequences of ignoring it.

The words we speak are a construction by your logic. We are apes making random sounds with our throat and lips. You can’t then just say “assuming dictionary definitions and alphabets is a cucked mindset” and refuse to talk to other people, being a spergy recluse who spits random noises till death. That’s not how life works. There are consequences for ignoring such “constructions”

If you are a Virgin male at the age of 23+, you are perma-socially excluded. Period. Friends don’t want to be around you, your family doesn’t respect you, even your Priest will passive aggressively view you as weird, and no woman will touch you unless they feel like they can financially get something from you. You can hide it to a degree, but eventually - because sex is all that matters - it will come up and your friends will discover either your lack of interest or inexperience and then cut you off from any meaningful relationship.

The only people who will welcome you are truly autistic people who aren’t able to provide meaningful social worth or self-esteem anyways, because they will be less functional and self-denigrating more than you are.

Your only option then is coping till you die in 50 years of agonizing pain, or suicide. Two options.

Simply saying “it’s a construction” won’t change it.

Who in the West is going to change it anyways assuming that you can (you can’t, fucking is a part of every single religious and cultural tradition in human history)? If you vocalize the issues in which men are discriminated and treated like disposable garbage such that the bottom 40% genetically (I would say the bottom 70%) cope with video games, Marvel movies, and other stupid bullshit, people will shut you down and socially punish you further.

Constructionist theory is bullshit anyways. A cheetah’s hunger for rabbits can’t be reconstructed to veganism. Human beings love fucking to produce more offspring. It will be a part of every culture regardless. In fact the human animal exists only to survive and infinitely reproduce, anything more goes to coping or supernatural assumptions.

In the simplest possible terms: It can have a tangible effect on your life but there doesn’t need to be a normie inside your head cyberbullying you 24/7 even when you’re alone

You also have no obligation to define your existence by what normies and foids arbitrarily think has value and could just as easily not believe in at all

The last paragraph seems to take for granted that all cultures throughout history had the same pathological obsession with sex as we do today and that the cultural variance I’m talking about is all theoretical. It isn’t, though, and there’s plenty of examples from beyond the past few hundred years of history that can broaden your frame of reference here, as I’ve discussed in previous comments

 

[ServusLuciferi]

Sex isn’t unique in this regard because the exact same evopsych argument could be made about paternal/familial relationships which are undoubtedly subject to cultural relativity

“Loving relationships” in the monogamous romantic sense are even more intangible, they didn’t exist until a few thousand years ago so there’s no way that they’re fundamental to humanity. There’s even more cultural variance in regards to this aspect

Hey you narcissistic Marxist faggot, have you actually read anthropological studies rather than parroting talking points without critical thought?

Pre Agricultural-Revolution, 1 in every 17 male reproduced. 1 in every 17. Additionally, food supplies were really limited.

What we can assume based on the archeological evidence available is that one good looking guy fucked most women and left them as single moms, or a guy would rape women, while the woman was left to deliver babies alone and raise them alone, put in a vulnerable state where she could be raped further. People starved due to limited meat resources. The rest of it was men constantly afraid of the big alpha chimp who would kill them if they misbehaved, but would try raping anyways due to sexual urges.

We're not gonna go back to some utopian dance around the campfire orgyland singing "Cumbayah my lord" world where everyones fucking each other and communally raising people selflessly.

Even if such a world were possible (which it isn't due to some bad genes invariably existing), it would take a ridiculous amount of self-control and selflessness which, in today's world, isn't possible. Most people today are infantilized children not capable of any kind of tangible social contribution, which is why society is collapsing.


The Agricultural Revolution was an attempt of mankind to create a rational, supernatural (literally) compromise that led to mutual benefit for most men and most women; women get a male protector to raise the child with and get to have sex, angry men get sex that gives them purpose; men work to provide food, women raise the children. Simple.

Pretending it is somehow "evil" is a disgrace to your ancestors, especially when a lot of this New Age utopian bulllshit is a product of post-agricultural revolution Eastern religious traditions being corrupted by Spoiled Urbanite Jews in the West in the 1960s.

 

[ServusLuciferi]

You also have no obligation to define your existence by what normies and foids arbitrarily think has value and could just as easily not believe in at all

It's batshit insane to think that you can define your existence by anything real or meaningful outside of human behavior, considering that you can't actually think about "your existence" without engaging in human behavior. Most of your ideals, including your naive social-engineering utopianism, is a product of your biology - why do you give a fuck about some utopian future landscape? You only give a fuck because you subconsciously want to infinitely propagate the species by providing comfortable environments for them to raise children in.

It isn’t, though, and there’s plenty of examples from beyond the past few hundred years of history that can broaden your frame of reference here, as I’ve discussed in previous comments

Give me one culture where sex wasn't a part of the culture. Do it. The only one I can think of are the Shakers, but they died off because nobody reproduced.

 

[shii410]

Hey you narcissistic Marxist faggot, have you actually read anthropological studies rather than parroting talking points without critical thought?

Pre Agricultural-Revolution, 1 in every 17 male reproduced. 1 in every 17. Additionally, food supplies were really limited.

What we can assume based on the archeological evidence available is that one good looking guy fucked most women and left them as single moms, or a guy would rape women, while the woman was left to deliver babies alone and raise them alone, put in a vulnerable state where she could be raped further. People starved due to limited meat resources. The rest of it was men constantly afraid of the big alpha chimp who would kill them if they misbehaved, but would try raping anyways due to sexual urges.

We're not gonna go back to some utopian dance around the campfire orgyland singing "Cumbayah my lord" world where everyones fucking each other and communally raising people selflessly.

Even if such a world were possible (which it isn't due to some bad genes invariably existing), it would take a ridiculous amount of self-control and selflessness which, in today's world, isn't possible. Most people today are infantilized children not capable of any kind of tangible social contribution, which is why society is collapsing.


The Agricultural Revolution was an attempt of mankind to create a rational, supernatural (literally) compromise that led to mutual benefit for most men and most women; women get a male protector to raise the child with and get to have sex, angry men get sex that gives them purpose; men work to provide food, women raise the children. Simple.

Pretending it is somehow "evil" is a disgrace to your ancestors, especially when a lot of this New Age utopian bulllshit is a product of post-agricultural revolution Eastern religious traditions being corrupted by Spoiled Urbanite Jews in the West in the 1960s.

You’re going off on a tangent here about something totally fucking unrelated, I have no idea what the fuck you are referring to. The fact that the vast majority of men died before passing on muh genes and that alpha males fucked and impregnated copious amounts of foids literally reaffirms my point. There was no cultural conception of having a wife/girlfriend or any equivalent kind of monogamous, emotionally intimate, long term “loving relationship” until a few thousand years ago. What the person I was replying to was talking about are actually extremely modern constructs

 

[ServusLuciferi]

You’re going off on a tangent here about something totally fucking unrelated, I have no idea what the fuck you are referring to. The fact that the vast majority of men died before passing on muh genes and that alpha males fucked and impregnated copious amounts of foids literally reaffirms my point. There was no cultural conception of having a wife/girlfriend or any equivalent kind of monogamous, emotionally intimate, long term “loving relationship” until a few thousand years ago. What the person I was replying to was talking about are actually extremely modern constructs

Engaging in social cooperation leads to biological fulfillment, and ignoring these "constructs" and thus ending social cooperation and thus ending biological fulfillment is retarded.

Additionally, I explained how monogamy is superior and abandoning it under the pretense of "it's made up bullshit lol" while disregarding the pragmatic consequences of abandoning it is absolutely retarded.

Sure, abandon speaking English because it's made up bullshit and grumble unintelligible sounds, because you can "transcend" these artificial social constructions. English isn't real, ever read Beowulf? That was in English and you can't understand it in the slightest. You can find fulfillment from grumbling nonsense sounds.

 

[shii410]

It's batshit insane to think that you can define your existence by anything real or meaningful outside of human behavior, considering that you can't actually think about "your existence" without engaging in human behavior. Most of your ideals, including your naive social-engineering utopianism, is a product of your biology - why do you give a fuck about some utopian future landscape? You only give a fuck because you subconsciously want to infinitely propagate the species by providing comfortable environments for them to raise children in.



Give me one culture where sex wasn't a part of the culture. Do it. The only one I can think of are the Shakers, but they died off because nobody reproduced.

Sex has always been a thing the same way having parents has always been a thing. The significance and value assigned to each (sexual relationships and familial relationships) is subject to cultural relativity

Compare this to how “you get no bitches” is everyday vocabulary for zoomers and how they consider promiscuity the ultimate measurement of male respectability

 

[shii410]

Engaging in social cooperation leads to biological fulfillment, and ignoring these "constructs" and thus ending social cooperation and thus ending biological fufillment is retarded.

Additionally, I explained how monogamy is superior and abandoning it under the pretense of "it's made up bullshit lol" while disregarding the pragmatic consequences of abandoning it is absolutely retarded.

Biological fulfillment seems like a vague term. Regardless the average incel who is suicidally depressed over the prospect of not having a girlfriend isn’t achieving that either. There’s no practical benefit to playing someone else’s game and then wanting to kill yourself after you invariably fail at it. This is all about higher reasoning and understanding your own values (personal enlightenment)

As for the thing about our modern conception of monogamous romantic relationships, I wasn’t really asserting that it’s a bad system or whatever, just that its something people came up with relatively recently (a few thousand years ago) and not an intrinsic function of the human psyche

Related sidenote: The old Germanic word for “king” roughly means “communal progenitor”

 

[ServusLuciferi]

Sex has always been a thing the same way having parents has always been a thing. The significance and value assigned to each (sexual relationships and familial relationships) is subject to cultural relativity
View attachment 640836
Compare this to how “you get no bitches” is everyday vocabulary for zoomers and how they consider promiscuity the ultimate measurement of male respectability

1. I would argue that just because there's a specific exception here and there, the vast majority of cultures still looked down on male virgins.
2. European cultures have fluctuated back and forth between purity and promiscuity, and even in those puritanical time periods male virginity was still looked down upon, suggesting there never was a point where male virginity was looked favorably at a biological level, even if artificial social restraints restrained such shaming.
3. We are more biologically controlled now more than ever before due to the decadence of the West (literally, most people in the West don't value anything more than social status, sex, and money), and nature is dictating our impulses; and men are virgin shamed now.

 

[ServusLuciferi]

Related sidenote: The old Germanic word for “king” roughly means “communal progenitor”

Oh yeah, early Agricultural Revolution societies retained elements of pre-Agricultural Revolution societies where the aristocracy / king had harems, you see this even in the Bible with concubines; notably, Solomon and his 10 thousand wives.

Biological fulfillment seems like a vague term.

Your body feeling good from fulfilling its biological imperative to fuck and feel genetically desired. That's it. I agree you can train your mind to control your body such that you not feeling good from not fucking won't affect your mind (either through learning to nullify those impulses, letting those impulses flow, or artificially inflaming those impulses in order to master them), but honestly life would be a lot happier if you felt genetically desires

not an intrinsic function of the human psyche

Sure, you can cut off your arms and still be human. I just don't get what the value is.
It's weird socially to be a virgin in your 20s. Even the Catholic monastic Saints fucked like gods before they became monks. Saint Augustine and Saint Francis were both romancers who loved pussy.


Being perfectly honest, I honestly don't give a flying fuck about being a virgin or not, my mind let that shit go a while ago. I don't judge other people about it either (unless they are running away from their problems).

The problem is that people judge me for something so logically inconsequential. Women get disgusted (I've experienced that first hand), most men will look down on you like a weirdo, and you will be socially excluded through passive aggressive bullying (being left out of social gatherings, being looked down on by beta males, men infantilizing you by calling you "buddy" or "pal").

I just want to love people and be respected. But people literally refuse respect to me and close off any opportunity for me to love them simply because I don't make pussy my main priority in life.

 

[shii410]

1. I would argue that just because there's a specific exception here and there, the vast majority of cultures still looked down on male virgins.
2. European cultures have fluctuated back and forth between purity and promiscuity, and even in those puritanical time periods male virginity was still looked down upon, suggesting there never was a point where male virginity was looked favorably at a biological level, even if artificial social restraints restrained such shaming.
3. We are more biologically controlled now more than ever before due to the decadence of the West (literally, most people in the West don't value anything more than social status, sex, and money), and nature is dictating our impulses; and men are virgin shamed now.

I think there’s more variance here than you believe and the cultural understanding of it is often more complicated than just male virgins being looked down on but the fundamentally important aspect here is mostly that cultural relativity applies to this at all. That alone means that the Gen Z neurotic obsession with sex isn’t the objective law of reality, which for the purposes of self image and identity is very important. If you internalize these things at face value without questioning them, they can cause far more suffering than they necessarily need to

As for the last paragraph, it’s true that modern society is incredibly sex centric. I mentioned before that it’s akin to how feudal Japan was heavily family centric and being a truecel in 2022 is similar to being estranged from your parents in that environment. This can obviously have a negative impact on your life and cause a lot of misery (otherwise I wouldn’t have spent literal thousands of hours browsing this forum). But like I said, it doesn’t mean there needs to be a normie inside your head constantly harassing you with these cultural notions even when you’re by yourself. It’s practically impossible to find anything resembling peace of mind while that’s the case.

 

[ServusLuciferi]

I think there’s more variance here than you believe and the cultural understanding of it is often more complicated than just male virgins being looked down on but the fundamentally important aspect here is mostly that cultural relativity applies to this at all. That alone means that the Gen Z neurotic obsession with sex isn’t the objective law of reality, which for the purposes of self image and identity is very important. If you internalize these things at face value without questioning them, they can cause far more suffering than they necessarily need to

As for the last paragraph, it’s true that modern society is incredibly sex centric. I mentioned before that it’s akin to how feudal Japan was heavily family centric and being a truecel in 2022 is similar to being estranged from your parents in that environment. This can obviously have a negative impact on your life and cause a lot of misery (otherwise I wouldn’t have spent literal thousands of hours browsing this forum). But like I said, it doesn’t mean there needs to be a normie inside your head constantly harassing you with these cultural notions even when you’re by yourself. It’s practically impossible to find anything resembling peace of mind while that’s the case.

Oh I agree with all of this, but I think real maturity comes when you realize that sometimes the selfless thing to do is to realize that you can't live in your ideals with the cost of your own total social isolation. At some level, just out of love of your fellow man, you have to compromise a bit.

 

[Liptusg]

This entire premise is very poorly constructed, ignores numerous factors in the analogy attempt, and does not derive its conclusion from its own logic. It could take days just to break some of the problems here, so I'll keep it short for now:

1. When you simply say 'enstranged by your parents in feudal japan', you're omitting the implications that might come along with it besides 'bad feelings' or cultural shame only - That you're potentially locked out of a massive amount of economical and social circles as a result, depending on whether your parents are respect in the community or not, and could very well end up as a starving beggar in the street as a result. On the other hand, if you parents are plebs, but you turn out to be the bastard offspring of the Emperor and he develops some fatherly pride and decided to legitimize you, then suddenly your parental estrangement is a massive boon.

These analogies, besides their faultiness, are simply 'whataboutism'. It's literally the vapid Reddit 'starving children in Africa' platitude. Well if you were disowned by your family in the middle-ages, your life would suck and you would want to kill yourself, well if you were a starving child in Africa, well if you were a Pagan in the Papal States - none of this has anything to do with your argument that the need for sex is a matter of cultural context.

Incels don't claim that Inceldom is the only source of suffering on planet earth. Yet some sources are much less 'contextual' than others, and sex is chief among them. Being *sexually ostracized*, not voluntarily abstinent, but sexually ostracized and despised by women has never had a good context at any time, place or point in history and never will, because that's how human biology works. Sex is the only thing that existed long before humans and their culture did. Yes, being abandoned by your parent was always bad too, it's even bad for animals, they'll mostly die if it happens. But how does whataboutism prove your fucking point? It doesn't, it just means BOTH THINGS are BIOLOGICALLY BAD.

2. OP continues to ignore specific portions of rebutalls in which it has been scientifically shown, at the chemical level, that individuals suffering from total absence of physical intimacy despite having normal hormonal and sexual drive and thus the impetus to get it, are likely to experience significant physical health deteroriation as a result.

3. My problem, and that of many incels, is FAR from just being about sex. As you say, women behave horribly, and it is to our great detriment that nature itself imprinted libido and side-effects on men who get no intimacy regardless of how enlightened they are about toxic femininity and women's brains. Our main problem is lookism - the fact that women will consistently seek to gaslight, humiliate, mock, abuse, shame, and undermine ugly men just for offending them with their ugly mugs at any place where a woman can possibly be present in - At home, at school, in work, in the street, in hobby groups, on the internet ( Duh ), and the list goes on.

 

[shii410]

Oh yeah, early Agricultural Revolution societies retained elements of pre-Agricultural Revolution societies where the aristocracy / king had harems, you see this even in the Bible with concubines; notably, Solomon and his 10 thousand wives.



Your body feeling good from fulfilling its biological imperative to fuck and feel genetically desired. That's it. I agree you can train your mind to control your body such that you not feeling good from not fucking won't affect your mind (either through learning to nullify those impulses, letting those impulses flow, or artificially inflaming those impulses in order to master them), but honestly life would be a lot happier if you felt genetically desires



Sure, you can cut off your arms and still be human. I just don't get what the value is.
It's weird socially to be a virgin in your 20s. Even the Catholic monastic Saints fucked like gods before they became monks. Saint Augustine and Saint Francis were both romancers who loved pussy.


Being perfectly honest, I honestly don't give a flying fuck about being a virgin or not, my mind let that shit go a while ago. I don't judge other people about it either (unless they are running away from their problems).

The problem is that people judge me for something so logically inconsequential. Women get disgusted (I've experienced that first hand), most men will look down on you like a weirdo, and you will be socially excluded through passive aggressive bullying (being left out of social gatherings, being looked down on by beta males, men infantilizing you by calling you "buddy" or "pal").

I just want to love people and be respected. But people literally refuse respect to me and close off any opportunity for me to love them simply because I don't make pussy my main priority in life.

Oh I agree with all of this, but I think real maturity comes when you realize that sometimes the selfless thing to do is to realize that you can't live in your ideals with the cost of your own total social isolation. At some level, just out of love of your fellow man, you have to compromise a bit.

Our fundamental line of reasoning seems really similar here. I think social isolation is the type of thing where the negative consequences of it actually are pretty integral to being human. When I think about my life long term, I’d say my main practical goals are just stability and to minimize external stressors. Certain notions that are relevant to social status are less important to me now, but ultimately I do consider it a fundamental need and some level of routine social interaction is actually necessary to sustain the life I want even in the best case scenario. I can’t imagine spending the next 40, 50, 60 years in total solitude and I don’t even think it’s feasible. As of right now I don’t interact with other humans irl on a typical day (or week or month) so the internet is vitally important in that regard. If all of my online contacts suddenly disappeared permanently this would become a really pressing issue for me and it’s something I have to account for long term

 

[ServusLuciferi]

Our fundamental line of reasoning seems really similar here. I think social isolation is the type of thing where the negative consequences of it actually are pretty integral to being human. When I think about my life long term, I’d say my main practical goals are just stability and to minimize external stressors. Certain notions that are relevant to social status are less important to me now, but ultimately I do consider it a fundamental need and some level of routine social interaction is actually necessary to sustain the life I want even in the best case scenario. I can’t imagine spending the next 40, 50, 60 years in total solitude and I don’t even think it’s feasible. As of right now I don’t interact with other humans irl on a typical day (or week or month) so the internet is vitally important in that regard. If all of my online contacts suddenly disappeared permanently this would become a really pressing issue for me and it’s something I have to account for long term

I would agree subject to one caveat - I maintain some level of self-respect for myself and have no expectation whatsoever that "friends" will be there for you in the long run, viewing things as sweet in the moment but knowing they will eventually end.

I learned this lesson the hard way; my best friend - whom I genuinely loved as a brother and felt was everything I've ever wanted to be, who would lighten up my day and bring me happiness, just made me happy to be alive - just one day cut all contact with me for no fucking reason, and I have a hole in my heart where I once had love for him. I confronted him about it via text and he didn't care.

I am trying to find contentment being alone (coping with spiritual praxis by talking with a deity) and building from there.

 

[shii410]

.

I’ll keep this relatively streamlined because I’ve already textwalled on this thread more than I initially intended to

1. When you simply say 'enstranged by your parents in feudal japan', you're omitting the implications that might come along with it besides 'bad feelings' or cultural shame only - That you're potentially locked out of a massive amount of economical and social circles as a result, depending on whether your parents are respect in the community or not, and could very well end up as a starving beggar in the street as a result. On the other hand, if you parents are plebs, but you turn out to be the bastard offspring of the Emperor and he develops some fatherly pride and decided to legitimize you, then suddenly your parental estrangement is a massive boon.

There are economic and social implications of being incelibate too, but regardless the relevant aspect of the analogy is that familial relationships were typically central to one’s personal life and that by being estranged from your parents you were completely excluded from something of unparalleled cultural significance (akin to how sexual relationships are perceived in 2022)

These analogies, besides their faultiness, are simply 'whataboutism'. It's literally the vapid Reddit 'starving children in Africa' platitude. Well if you were disowned by your family in the middle-ages, your life would suck and you would want to kill yourself, well if you were a starving child in Africa, well if you were a Pagan in the Papal States - none of this has anything to do with your argument that the need for sex is a matter of cultural context.

You completely missed the point of the analogy. The point isn’t that such people’s lives were “worse” than yours. It’s that their issues were also a product of arbitrary cultural values. With their frame of reference they also would have understood their respective culture values to be fundamental and an intrinsic part of human life. But since you (presumably) live in modern day Anglo culture where familial relationships aren’t that important, you know first hand that this is not the case. The main takeaway from this is that while cultural values can act as a major seppuku-inducing external stressor, they also aren’t the objective law of reality and it’s not necessary to consciously internalize them. And it’s certainly not healthy or rational to genuinely believe in these backwards values once you have the frame of reference to understand that they are cultural memes that people arbitrarily assign value to and choose to believe in. (With that said, it should be evident why the thing you referenced about starving Africans is totally irrelevant here and not what I was talking about.)

2. OP continues to ignore specific portions of rebutalls in which it has been scientifically shown, at the chemical level, that individuals suffering from total absence of physical intimacy despite having normal hormonal and sexual drive and thus the impetus to get it, are likely to experience significant physical health deteroriation as a result.

This is where it gets a lot more complex and multi faceted. I have a lot to say about this but to sum it up; this and the assertion that the modern cultural significance of sex is not inherent and vastly outweighs the intrinsic properties of it are not mutually exclusive. “Not having sex ever can feel bad” and “There doesn’t need to be a normie inside your head endlessly berating you for not meeting social expectations” can both be true statements at the same time.

3. My problem, and that of many incels, is FAR from just being about sex. As you say, women behave horribly, and it is to our great detriment that nature itself imprinted libido and side-effects on men who get no intimacy regardless of how enlightened they are about toxic femininity and women's brains. Our main problem is lookism - the fact that women will consistently seek to gaslight, humiliate, mock, abuse, shame, and undermine ugly men just for offending them with their ugly mugs at any place where a woman can possibly be present in - At home, at school, in work, in the street, in hobby groups, on the internet ( Duh ), and the list goes on.

This is actually just a central part of what I’m asserting here. What you’re describing here is mostly the social connotations of sexlessness, which I think are the main issue and are also largely cultural. As for the part about lookism, being ugly is indeed bad in every culture and I’d say that’s a distinct thing from what I’m tackling here. “People treat me badly because I’m ugly” is a pretty objective assessment that clearly outlines what the actual problem is. “I’m a worthless loser and my life is meaningless because I’ve never had a girlfriend” is something else entirely.

In short, the fact that cultural memes can be bad and make your life difficult was never in dispute. The point of contention here is that their real significance *does* largely come down to subjective values that you don’t necessarily need to agree with or believe in, especially once you’ve realized how backwards and arbitrary they are. In fact, accepting them as the non-negotiable law of the universe and developing crippling neurotic complexes over them based on that premise is a big mistake.