How much of being a loser is your own responsibility?

[Fontaine]

My opinion:

• Before the age of 15: 0%. You're merely a product of genetic stock and environmental influences.
• After the age of 15: 50%. Your choices begin to affect your own life, although they continue to be warped and limited by circumstances and possibly mental illness.

Conservatives tend to believe that it is 100% all your life. I've actually met people who believe that...

 

[Gremlincel]

Most people believe that, liberal or conservative. The other idea, that there is a lot we can't control in the slightest, is too hard to accept for most people. The 'just world fallacy' is among the most tightly held concepts to the masses.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

0%. Free will is an illusion.

 

[Deleted member 60]

kys if you support just world fallacy

 

[Fontaine]

Most people believe that, liberal or conservative. The other idea, that there is a lot we can't control in the slightest, is too hard to accept for most people. The 'just world fallacy' is among the most tightly held concepts to the masses.

In my experience, no, most people don't believe that. American media is full of Marxist talk notably.

In real life it's the same, however, I've mostly associated in my life with fellow losers and not "winners" attending a business school.

 

[Deleted member 8353]

• Before the age of 15: 0%. You're merely a product of genetic stock and environmental influences.

• After the age of 15: 50%. Your choices begin to affect your own life, although they continue to be warped and limited by circumstances and possibly mental illness.

I agree with this, at least to an extent. You can't change your circumstances, but you can slowly alter your personality by consciously choosing which thought patterns and ideas to endorse. I may not be able to change a situation, but I can slightly choose my responses preemptively.

The issue is most of my problems stem from before the age of 15, almost entirely due to environmental factors. While sure, even if I had totally different experiences I may have still have been a 24 year old virgin, I'd likely be better off in almost every other respect. My mother barely taught me anything, and was extremely overprotective, I couldn't relate to other kids at all and never really learned how to communicate well.

 

[Fontaine]

0%. Free will is an illusion.

This is simplistic. Free will does exist, anyone who practices nofap or any kind of painful self-improvement knows it.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

This is simplistic. Free will does exist, anyone who practices nofap or any kind of painful self-improvement knows it.

Your brain makes decisions unconsciously before you even implement that decision.

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain simply decided to do nofap, and your body was just self-conflicting with that decision.

 

[Evildoer]

You are fully responsibile for being loser. That's basically the defintion of this word. One who loses. You have play first. Incels are not losers, we can't even play that game, as everything was over before it even started.

 

[Fontaine]

Your brain makes decisions unconsciously before you even implement that decision.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain simply decided to do nofap, and your body was just self-conflicting with that decision.

That's bullshit based on a bad study offering no real proof.

Free will deniers have to do better than this.

How come I hesitate until the very last second when it comes to fap if my brain already took a decision "ten seconds earlier"?

 

[Evildoer]

This is simplistic. Free will does exist, anyone who practices nofap or any kind of painful self-improvement knows it.

If we go into deep ass determinism, this is highly arguable. Your brain makes decisions before you even realise it, and decisions are largely dependent on your life experiences, current hormonal level, everything. Even weather affect the decision you make.

 

[smokerlurker69]

50% sounds about right, because characteristics that are adaptive in one environment could be maladaptive in another.

For example, in a patriarchist society, success with girls might be about being a hardworking guy with a knack for figuring out honest ways to make money; while in a feminist society, success with girls might be about being a handsome, violent thug.

Even attractiveness is based on averageness, which is situational.

Feminists want to destroy masculinity and turn us all in to beta cucks, though.

 

[TheRealChincel]

Did I consent to being born? Can I make myself average-looking through surgeries? (The answer is no according to two surgeons) It's 0% ALWAYS.

 

[Fontaine]

If we go into deep ass determinism, this is highly arguable. Your brain makes decisions before you even realise it, and decisions are largely dependent on your life experiences, current hormonal level, everything. Even weather affect the decision you make.

Nofap is precisely about going against what your brain, body and hormones want.

 

[smokerlurker69]

If we go into deep ass determinism, this is highly arguable. Your brain makes decisions before you even realise it, and decisions are largely dependent on your life experiences, current hormonal level, everything. Even weather affect the decision you make.

Weather determines my decisions? What about decisions that have nothing to do with weather? Is whether or not it is raining outside gonna change what I am posting on this forum?

Don't tell me you believe in astrology, too? What, next you're gonna say that the positions of the planets aligned so that's why I was born too short or something?

 

[UBERCEL]

0%. Free will is an illusion.

Tbh

 

[uruguayan]

It depends, in extreme cases it might be close to 0%, for most people probably 25%. There is a snowball effect, when you are younger your enviroment and genetics will affect you a lot, and that will shape who you are going to become, so by the time your choices start to matter you are already shaped mentally in a certain way

 

[Fontaine]

Did I consent to being born? Can I make myself average-looking through surgeries? (The answer is no according to two surgeons) It's 0% ALWAYS.

I tend to agree, however this kind of talk would be seen with great contempt by most normies. Men with no willpower and locus of control have always been an object of pity, from homeless wanderers to alcoholic bums. Blaming exterior circumstances can be rational in some cases but can become a dangerous drug.

 

[Deleted member 8353]

Your brain makes decisions unconsciously before you even implement that decision.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. How can a person kill themselves if free will doesn't exist, it goes against every biological directive? You might say that we trick ourselves into it, but even if that's true, it's implicitly stating some type of will. Remember that some have even killed themselves violently and relatively slowly, and died from blood loss/burning to death.

Did I consent to being born? Can I make myself average-looking through surgeries? (The answer is no according to two surgeons) It's 0% ALWAYS.

This sentiment I actually agree with though.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

That's bullshit based on a bad study offering no real proof.

Free will deniers have to do better than this.

How come I hesitate until the very last second when it comes to fap if my brain already took a decision "ten seconds earlier"?

Why does hesitation prove you control your own life? That is simply the brain conflicting with itself. Like wanting to not look like a pussy because a bully is challenging you to a fight, but you are still scared of him because he is bigger than you. But that conflict within itself is caused by your brain. It still makes a decision in the end. You feeling like you overcoming the hesitation will feel you are in control, hence the "illusion."

 

[Fontaine]

Why does hesitation prove you control your own life? That is simply the brain conflicting with itself. Like wanting to not look like a pussy because a bully is challenging you to a fight, but you are still scared of him because he is bigger than you. But that conflict within itself is caused by your brain. It still makes a decision in the end. You feeling like you overcoming the hesitation will feel you are in control, hence the "illusion."

I see no purpose in convincing yourself that free will doesn't exist since it will simply be an excuse for lazy or vicious behavior most of the time. ("Let my brain decide! My brain wants me to fap and eat this donut, so let's do it").

Free will may be an illusion but it's a useful one. And for all practical purposes, it makes no difference whether it's real or not.

 

[Gremlincel]

0%. Free will is an illusion.

This is my position, too. I don't think it is deniable, really.

Free will may be an illusion but it's a useful one.

This is also true, however. Even if free will isn't real, we as a species will always act as if it is, there it no other alternative.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. How can a person kill themselves if free will doesn't exist, it goes against every biological directive? You might say that we trick ourselves into it, but even if that's true, it's implicitly stating some type of will. Remember that some have even killed themselves violently and relatively slowly, and died from blood loss/burning to death.

Being intoxicated is known to increase your chances of suicide because it alters how your brain is. The fear of pain and death because far weaker, the real resistance to preventing you from suicide. So it is still your brain making that decision. Your brain just decided to alter itself with drugs. And this is only in abnormal conditions would the brain promote suicide. The human body and brain is not perfect for survival, remember that.

 

[uruguayan]

I think you can compare free will to randomness when throwing a dice. When you throw a dice the result is not random because it was affected by a set of parameters (they way you throw it). In life every decision is affected by your current situation, which was the result of previous decisions you made, and you can go all the way back till the moment you were born. If you see it that way free will doesn´t exist

 

[Gyros_Pretcel]

The brain is just a glorified input output machine.

Every decisions outcome is ingrained in the physical state of your brain only altered by input. Even the idea to control your life, improve, get new input is decided by that beforehand. Even the decision to fuck up due to determinism.

You copers.

Free will may be an illusion but it's a useful one. And for all practical purposes, it makes no difference whether it's real or not.

It makes. It destroy political / societal we are the good ones narratives to a certain extend.

 

[Gremlincel]

I think you can compare free will to randomness when throwing a dice. When you throw a dice the result is not random because it was affected by a set of parameters (they way you throw it). In life every decision is affected by your current situation, which was the result of previous decisions you made, and you can go all the way back till the moment you were born. If you see it that way free will doesn´t exist

Yes, life is reactionary determinism from the start, combined with pure unbiased chance, no 'will', however.

 

[Gyros_Pretcel]

I think you can compare free will to randomness when throwing a dice. When you throw a dice the result is not random because it was affected by a set of parameters (they way you throw it). In life every decision is affected by your current situation, which was the result of previous decisions you made, and you can go all the way back till the moment you were born. If you see it that way free will doesn´t exist

Well said. There is no randomness etc. Just physics.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

I see no purpose in convincing yourself that free will doesn't exist since it will simply be an excuse for lazy or vicious behavior most of the time. ("Let my brain decide! My brain wants me to fap and eat this donut, so let's do it").

Free will may be an illusion but it's a useful one. And for all practical purposes, it makes no difference whether it's real or not.

I can't argue against that. For the average person, this belief would definitely encourage them to be more degenerate, less disciplined, etc. It is the same way with religion, it is needed by society in order to cause humans to function in a civilized manner out of fear of hell or whatever. The idea that they are responsible for their actions will encourage their brain to act less mature.

And I do not use that as an excuse to be lazy or vicious. I would work from 6am to 2am from my adolescence upwards, even when I believed this. I still would if I got a reason to care.

 

[universallyabhorred]

0%. Free will is an illusion.

 

[Deleted member 8353]

I can't argue against that. For the average person, this belief would definitely encourage them to be more degenerate, less disciplined, etc. It is the same way with religion, it is needed by society in order to cause humans to function in a civilized manner out of fear of hell or whatever. The idea that they are responsible for their actions will encourage their brain to act less mature.

And I do not use that as an excuse to be lazy or vicious. I would work from 6am to 2am from my adolescence upwards, even when I believed this. I still would if I got a reason to care.

I tend to view the universe as deterministic, but a part of ourselves is in a struggle against it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, how would it be helpful to believe I have no freedom? Actually I used to feel this way and it made me feel even more powerless, and as you clearly know, this can be easily proven. If you believe yourself to be powerless it will alter your capacity to make decisions.

That said, I'd be the first to tell you that the self is an illusion, but extending this reasoning to the entirety of will is nothing but harmful even if it were true.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

I tend to view the universe as deterministic, but a part of ourselves is in a struggle against it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, how would it be helpful to believe I have no freedom? Actually I used to feel this way and it made me feel even more powerless, and as you clearly know, this can be easily proven. If you believe yourself to be powerless it will alter your capacity to make decisions.

That said, I'd be the first to tell you that the self is an illusion, but extending this reasoning to the entirety of will is nothing but harmful even if it were true.

refer to the post I made before this one. I agree that this belief will cause great harm to practically everyone. Just like how atheism will cause a degradation of your morals.

So is it Fontaine's fault that he posted this, or was it destiny that he had no way of controlling? Or did BlackPill101 post it and then mention it over at BlackPill.online as a way of successfully trolling me into linking it? And if so, was that BlackPill101's fault, or was it destiny?

Horrible troll. That posting style is nothing like OP. "letsgoleftism" JFL

 

[Unknown Status]

things you can help- are your fault. Things you cant help , like height, intelligence, looks are not your fault.
neets complaining about having no money- that's your fault.

 

[WarriorSkull]

Did I consent to being born?

There are some spiritual schools that believe we do choose to come here.

As for the concept of free will, I don't think it's that important of a question in practical terms. Clearly whatever the truth is, our experience of exerting will is anything but free. Anyone who wills themselves to do any behavior they already do habitually knows how un-free it is. Of course, you may think I'm just playing word games associating the "free" in "free will" with cost rather than freedom.

What I see as the real issue people get tripped up by concerning the will is in how much respect they pay to the subconscious mind. I think people lack a great deal of respect for the subconscious mind, the autonomic nervous system, how the body is the bridge between the conscious & subconscious and how these two minds are completely separate from one another.

I don't know about other cultures, but the west tends to have to much faith in the conscious mind and it's ability to control the environment, your body, your behavior, your thoughts and beliefs, your feelings and those of other people. There is countless evidence showing how little in control we actually are and the real frightening part is that our conscious mind is in on the conspiracy. Just take all your life experiences and all the studies we've seen regarding how looks affects people's perceptions of others. People don't even realize they are just attracted to people for how they look and nothing else. Instead their conscious minds backward rationalize the subtle urges and impressions broadcasted by their subconscious through their body. Attractive people literally make us feel good, excited, energized, relaxed, trusting, happy, etc. From this our conscious minds reason that these people must truly be good people who possess innumerable positive qualities. When they look at ugly people they feel disgust, apprehension, uneasy, depressed, angry, low energy, irritated, threatened, etc. Surely such a person who makes you feel such a way is bad person incapable of doing anything right or good?

Extrapolate this out as far as you dare. You'll see just how massive the pyramid (social dominance hierarchy) is. How far reaching. Are you responsible in such an instance. You're a single grain of sand in the Sahara desert. A single star in the entire universe. It's funny, because yea, you're still responsible on some level, but level is that exactly? It is sort of paradox where you are responsible for your choices, but you're not responsible for how they turn out.

 

[赤い太陽]

My opinion:

• Before the age of 15: 0%. You're merely a product of genetic stock and environmental influences.
• After the age of 15: 50%. Your choices begin to affect your own life, although they continue to be warped and limited by circumstances and possibly mental illness.

Conservatives tend to believe that it is 100% all your life. I've actually met people who believe that...

I've met people who believe that every outcome you have in life is all your choice. I think there was a Bill Gates quote that went (and I'm paraphrasing), "It's not your fault if you're born poor, but it is your fault if you die poor".

It's virtually impossible to control every outcome of life, otherwise you would literally be God. I think so many people want to believe it's because they're doing something wrong is because human's tend to lean towards ideologies that give them an ounce of control.

As for me, I think most things that happen to us are beyond our control. It doesn't mean that we aren't responsible for our actions (ie theft), but at the same time, I do believe that your genetics determine how far you can get in life. That's just my opinion, however.

Did I consent to being born? Can I make myself average-looking through surgeries? (The answer is no according to two surgeons) It's 0% ALWAYS.

I sure wish there was a philosophical school of thought that developed that argument a bit further. Maybe antinatalism does, but I'm just not sure.

 

[Deleted member 8353]

refer to the post I made before this one. I agree that this belief will cause great harm to practically everyone. Just like how atheism will cause a degradation of your morals.

Yeah I agree with you there, and like I've said on this site before, I think the definition of libertarian free will is completely impossible as well. It's just that most arguments beyond that venture into the conjecture territory, as if you could prove it, you'd be beyond it.

I sure wish there was a philosophical school of thought that developed that argument a bit further. Maybe antinatalism does, but I'm just not sure.

Well antinatalism isn't really a school of thought on it's own, it's more like one facet of several schools of thought.

 

[deadman123]

things you can help- are your fault. Things you cant help , like height, intelligence, looks are not your fault.
neets complaining about having no money- that's your fault.

 

[赤い太陽]

Yeah I agree with you there, and like I've said on this site before, I think the definition of libertarian free will is completely impossible as well. It's just that most arguments beyond that venture into the conjecture territory, as if you could prove it, you'd be beyond it.


Well antinatalism isn't really a school of thought on it's own, it's more like one facet of several schools of thought.

I suppose so, but it would be cool if there was. Anti-natalists are the only people I can think of who make an argument that bringing children into the world is technically subjecting a newborn to suffering. Although I doubt an idea like that would get very far.

 

[Deleted member 8353]

I suppose so, but it would be cool if there was. Anti-natalists are the only people I can think of who make an argument that bringing children into the world is technically subjecting a newborn to suffering. Although I doubt an idea like that would get very far.

It won't, and there are many obvious reasons why this is the case. Self denial and a belief in a truly unjust and unworthy world aren't popular concepts(and these are just the surface level reasons). In fact most go well beyond a simple rejection of this, they're outright hostile toward antinatalism.

 

[oldcel75]

high IQ.

 

[BridgeJumper]

tbh my mental illnesses and my looks have held me back. People treat you differently when you are not normal.
Teachers have treated me badly on purpose because of these things. Getting lower grades from Foid Teachers because they hated me.
Now I'm 20 with a useless Uni Degree, at least I pulled through and got myself a job and place to stay.
I didn't do anything to make myself a loser, I was set up to be a loser since the day I was born.

 

[Mongolianwizard]

Fucking none of it. I take no responsibility for how things turned out. And I don't have to, because now i'm taking chads money and getting paid to stay home and play video games.
Taking responsibility can suck my fucking dick.

 

[Robtical]

Are you a loser for not winning the lottery? It's your fault for picking the wrong numbers. I'd say the reasons I'm not getting laid and not making enough money are because of things that are 90-95% out of my control, so only 5-10% responsible.

 

[striderhiryu]

My opinion:

• Before the age of 15: 0%. You're merely a product of genetic stock and environmental influences.
• After the age of 15: 50%. Your choices begin to affect your own life, although they continue to be warped and limited by circumstances and possibly mental illness.

Conservatives tend to believe that it is 100% all your life. I've actually met people who believe that...

Always seems to be those who were handed the world on a silver platter that believe that. Same kind of people who believe if you don't have a great life and loads of money then you are just lazy.

I've been lucky enough to be born smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough.

No where near hot enough to coast through life on looks and no where near smart enough to get ahead with my intelligence. Sometimes I envy those who are dumb but happy. Being blissfully ignorant might be quite nice.

 

[mylifeistrash]

My opinion:

• Before the age of 15: 0%. You're merely a product of genetic stock and environmental influences.
• After the age of 15: 50%. Your choices begin to affect your own life, although they continue to be warped and limited by circumstances and possibly mental illness.

Conservatives tend to believe that it is 100% all your life. I've actually met people who believe that...

lol it's impossible for a short ugly guy NOT to be a loser

 

[Juxtaposition6]

I'm not really a "loser"
I don't describe myself with an insult normalfags created to bring anyone but them down, but given the current situation of my neetdom, i was responsible for it because i hadn't paid attention.
I aim to remedy the damage.