Harmlesscels vs ogrecels.

[Ryo_Hazuki]

I'd say most people in incel communities fall into one of two categories...harmlesscels and ogrecels.

Harmlesscels:

- low T
- Usually manlets
- Younger (looking)
- high inhibition
- insecure about masculinity
- Think taller, more masculine guys have it better even if they're ugly
- Rarely approach women, if ever.
- Shy
- Sometimes pretty boys but usually in the 4-6/10 range
- Have usually had girlfriends in the past or at least had OPTIONS
- invisible to most women

Ogrecels:

- Usually high T
- Often older looking
- Low trust face
- Commonly balding
- Commonly have long midfaces
- usually in the 2-4 out of 10 range
- actively repulse women
- make women fear for their safety just by existing
- Have approached plenty of women but have been rejected every single time
- Extremely low standards but even 2/10 women reject them
- More extroverted and outgoing, at least compared to harmlesscels
- Usually KHV truecels

This has just been my general observation not only here, but having been in various incel communities for many years.  Obviously the above isn't always true....but it's definitely a trend that I've noticed.

 

[Dry Spell]

Harmlesscel feminine nasally sounding 5"8 manlet faggot here

 

[Deleted member 2119]

Yup i'm 100% a harmlesscel

 

[Kointo1]

Ogrecel. Definitely ogrecel.

 

[KyloRen]

Interesting observation. Would greatly merit future study.

As for me, I don't fit into either of these categories.

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

Ogrecel. Definitely ogrecel.

Man, you really are my brother from another mother.

 

[Framecel222]

Dude holy shit, I had this EXACT same idea a couple weeks ago. This is so trippy.

I'm definitely more of an ogrecel, women are visibly scared of me. Normies move out of my way on the sidewalk from 100 feet out.

 

[idkwattodowithlife]

I would be a fake, if I were a hybrid?

---

I think this thread is a good chance or opportunity for @blickpall to chime in, respond to Ryos question, and even tell some people about his experiences.

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

I would be a fake, If I were a hybrid?

I'm sure there's plenty of hybrids here.

In fact, I'm sure most people here have at least one trait from both. It's just the majority probably much more closely fit into one category than the other.

 

[Machiavelli]

harmlesscel

 

[Kointo1]

Man, you really are my brother from another mother.

 

[anon_899]

Ogrecel in appearance and harmlesscel in behavior

 

[idkwattodowithlife]

Man, you really are my brother from another mother.

 

[Kointo1]

SAIKAWA CHAN

 

[FeminismsCancer]

Damn that's a very accurate analysis and it kinda clarifies why TRP/PUA didn't work for me. If you remember
one of the approach rules was to be non-threatening but not overdo it or you get friend zoned and the whole issue was to calibrate properly. All bullshit of course, only looks matter and I was harmless when young but ogre now and always ugly.

 

[asdf1234]

Fuark, I'm Ogrecel, those descriptions match to a tee

Except for long midface

 

[Kointo1]

Ogrecel in appearance and harmlesscel in behavior

That's pretty much me

 

[blickpall]

I would be a fake, if I were a hybrid?
I think this thread is a good chance or opportunity for @blickpall to chime in, respond to Ryos question, and even tell some people about his experiences.

I'm a harmlesscel for sure. I'm not short - 5'11" - but not very tall either. Everything else is more or less accurate.

I don't think I'm low T considering I have normal growth everywhere on my body - I just have a babyface. Becoming hairy admittedly took me longer than most of my peers, i think, but that also could be explained by ethnic origin and my being blonde.Starting from 19 though, I had dense chest hair, leg hair, etc. A late bloomer in some way, I guess, even though I was already at around my max height when I was 15.

I don't see any question that @Ryo_Hazuki asked; don't see what you're talking about there.

I don't know what experiences you are referring to, to be honest. If it's about the girls I orbited, I guess that applies in the sense that I didn't actively repulse them. If it's about my OkC date with the 3/10 SEAsian who wanted me to get raped in an incestuous orgy, maybe she was looking for twinks to feed her brother, I wouldn't know because I didn't explore that avenue. When I was maybe 15 or so, I guess some could say that I had "opportunities" but I'm not sure if that was real or fantasy given how that was also the time that I was heavily bluepilled and convinced I could orbit Cheerleader-Stacie into a relationship with me; in other words, even if I thought that a girl or two had a "crush" on me, I could just as easily be wrong because I'm somewhat socially handicapped. As for any other experiences that come to mind, I don't think that they apply.

 

[Cannon Fodder]

I don't fit anywhere there. There isn't just two types of _cel anyway.

 

[blickpall]

Fuark, I'm Ogrecel, those descriptions match to a tee

Except for long midface

Yes, about this. @Ryo_Hazuki you know that High T is correlated with shorter, wider faces and not with longer ones, right?

EDIT:

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/friend-or-foe-what-shape-your-face-says-about-you/

"Men with larger ratios [of face width to height] also have higher levels of testosterone – a hormone strongly implicated in dominance-seeking behaviour. One study even found that men with larger ratios had more children than men with smaller ratios."

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

Yes, about this. @Ryo_Hazuki you know that High T is correlated with shorter, wider faces and not with longer ones, right?

On average, higher T leads to both broader faces as well as more vertical growth.  But a lot of high T ogres end up with the excess vertical growth but not the broader face.  

Think of it this way, do you consider a compact midface to be masculine or feminine?

 

[blickpall]

On average, higher T leads to both broader faces as well as more vertical growth.  But a lot of high T ogres end up with the excess vertical growth but not the broader face.  

Think of it this way, do you consider a compact midface to be masculine or feminine?

According to the study cited in that article, people in general see men who have high testosterone and a resulting larger ratio between face width and height to be more threatening, but not women. Thus, we can deduce that longer faces are generally considered a low testosterone and thus less manly/threatening trait. One anecdotal example of an aging and unusually tall woman having masculine features while having a longer face doesn't really disprove this observation.

Here is another article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2306774/Having-short-wide-face-sign-sporting-prowess-claim-researchers.html

Behold your high T male.

I admit that these are just summary articles on news sites and not the original scientific articles, but I think if you click on the referenced texts you will find corroborating evidence. This is something I was taught in uni as well, that's why I knew where and what to look for, which in itself is not much as far as evidence goes but just to highlight how widespread these findings are.

 

[ziboiya]

Harmlesscel mentalcel. not a manlet at least.

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

According to the study cited in that article, people in general see men who have high testosterone and a resulting larger ratio between face width and height to be more threatening, but not women. Thus, we can deduce that longer faces are generally considered a low testosterone and thus less manly/threatening trait. One anecdotal example of an aging and unusually tall woman having masculine features while having a longer face doesn't really disprove this observation.

Here is another article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2306774/Having-short-wide-face-sign-sporting-prowess-claim-researchers.html

Behold your high T male.

I admit that these are just summary articles on news sites and not the original scientific articles, but I think if you click on the referenced texts you will find corroborating evidence. This is something I was taught in uni as well, that's why I knew where and what to look for, which in itself is not much as far as evidence goes but just to highlight how widespread these findings are.

https://design.tutsplus.com/articles/the-differences-between-male-and-female-portraits--vector-14954

Generally, men have longer and larger faces than women

http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.info/ffs_male_female_faces.html

The distance between the nose’s base and lip’s top is usually longer in males

http://www.chet-plasticsurgery.com/facial-feminization-surgery-with-dr-chettawut/

Men have longer faces than women.

http://www.solanoplasticsurgery.com/articles/facial-feminization-body-contouring/

Men have longer faces than women.

 

[anon2719]

Ogrecell appearance and harmlesscell personality

 

[Kointo1]

Ogrecell appearance and harmlesscell personality

*cel

 

[NekoStance]

Pretty good analysis tbh.

I fall closer to 2nd one.

How about an incel that is the first when he is young and then second when he gets older? That would be fucked up.

 

[anon2719]

*cel

sorry

 

[Kointo1]

sorry

No problem

 

[blickpall]

https://design.tutsplus.com/articles/the...ctor-14954

This is an article on how to draw women vs. men. It has no basis in science. "Longer faces" are attributed to men, but can't that just be a result of men being taller as well? Longer doesn't mean that the faces aren't wider as well for the sake of proportionality. If you look at their portraits, their faces are wider as well as longer.

Even if this did prove that most men have longer faces, it doesn't prove that higher testosterone levels create even longer faces among men.

http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.inf...faces.html

"Male faces have a more square appearance and an “M” shaped hairline coming down to a wide, square cornered jaw at the bottom. The lower third of the male face is usually longer because of a long top lip and tall chin. "

Again, no studies cited in this article either.

http://www.chet-plasticsurgery.com/facia...chettawut/

This one does say that male faces are generally longer, but again no reference to them being NARROWER as a result, and no reference to them being a result of higher testosterone which is your initial claim.

Also no research studies backing this are cited.

http://www.solanoplasticsurgery.com/arti...ontouring/

Again, no research study cited.

Plastic surgery websites are not scientifically reputable sources.

 

[Weed]

Wtf nigga. Harmlesscels 98% truth about me

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

@blickpall

If you want a proper study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5051712/

Adult men in Malaysia when compared to women had a wider distance between the eyes, a longer and more prominent nose and a longer face.

The male nose was generally longer and more prominent. Nose height and nasal bridge length were clinically larger significantly, with mean differences of 4.93mm and 5.73mm respectively. Malay men had longer faces as demonstrated by the increase in face height (mean difference 8.31mm) and in the lower face height (mean difference 3.92mm).

 

[KilluminoidBR]

SLAYER EYES MOTHERFUCKERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Kointo1]

SLAYER EYES MOTHERFUCKERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Light mogging L

 

[QuantumDummy]

I'm a mix of the two.

 

[undeadcel]

OGRE

 

[blickpall]

@blickpall

If you want a proper study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5051712/

Again, this only proves that men have longer faces than women, which does not necessarily mean that your "ogre" men have longer faces as a result of high T. This also only proves that men's faces were longer than women's in absolute terms, not in relative terms. What I mean is that there was no indication that they normalized the measurements for overall height. I'm not going to look into this if I don't have to, because I think we can both agree that men are on average taller, and that men on average have larger skulls than women, and that taller people on average have bigger skulls than shorter people. This means that the absolute differences between the two genders can be at least partially attributed to differences in overall body size, of which the head is a part of. If you found that the average male tibia was longer than the average female's would you be surprised? If you then used that to explain that men with longer tibias then other men had higher testosterone, I would say that that is a fallacious parallel.

There many differences between men and women that lead to dimorphism. One study I was just looking at actually cited cortisol as the main contributor to this dimorphism, while others like the one I will cite below still attribute it to testosterone (although there is no reason why they both couldn't be contributing factors). But, since we are on the topic of men's testosterone levels vs. facial length, here are some interesting findings:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1816/20151351

"For example, among 12–18-year-olds, a positive correlation is present between the concentration of testosterone in saliva and the dimensions of several male-typical facial characteristics, such as a broader forehead, chin, jaw and nose."

Note the lack of mention of longer face as being a male-typical facial characteristic. Only broader traits are so associated. This is consistent with the other literature I referenced on the interaction between testosterone and facial dimensions. These are the measurements that they will thus be looking for as a measurement of male facial dimorphism.

"Higher levels of testosterone were related to increased facial masculinity both within and between sex, with correlations indicating a medium-to-strong effect size. By contrast, where data were available (males only), there was no significant associations between adult testosterone concentrations and facial gender score. The associations between cord blood BioT and facial phenotypes remained in both sexes even after controlling for potentially confounding antenatal, sociodemographic and physical variables."

In other words in the testosterone levels in the womb/at birth results in increased facial masculinity within and between sex. For men, there was no significant difference between adult testosterone concentrations and facial gender score, meaning that your facial dimorphism is actually determined at birth much more so than at or after puberty. However, closer to the topic at hand, it is the features that the study mentioned above as prototypically male that were correlated to the level of testosterone in the womb (breadth) and not facial length.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1737/2457

Here is a study conducted on male children which shows that another testosterone sensitive feature, the length of the index vs. ring finger, was positively correlated to "masculine" features. Their description of these in adult men are:

"Regression analyses depict the same shape patterns as in adults, namely that the lower the 2D : 4D, the smaller and shorter the forehead, the thicker the eyebrows, the wider and shorter the nose, and the larger the lower face."

The rest of the study goes on to support the findings of the first one - that male dimorphism is present even in pre-pubescent men, and that this expression of elevated testosterone results in shorter features predominantly, not longer.