Experiment Free Will vs Determinism

[SoCalSuifuel]

What are people's opinions on these things? Which one do you believe in and why? Are they mutually exclusive, or do you think that choice can exist within a world of causality?

 

[Pariah]

Let's put it like this: if at the moment of big bang you had the computing power to see every atom and its exact trajectory (simplified ofc, there would be a ton more variables) you would know the entire future of the universe, including the actions of life forms.

 

[Socratescel]

Things are pre-determined, but not everything, we don't know that much about the brain

 

[Deleted member 2798]

Let's put it like this: if at the moment of big bang you had the computing power to see every atom and its exact trajectory (simplified ofc, there would be a ton more variables) you would know the entire future of the universe, including the actions of life forms.

Yeah. Stochasticity as an epistemological problem. "Stochastic determinism", i.e. a fundamentally deterministic universe that cannot be apprehended by human models.

I put my thoughts on the issue more broadly in another thread recently:

I always find it difficult to explain exactly what I mean when discussing this issue, but I'll set some things down regardless. Everything is ultimately "involuntary". All behavior is unavoidably deterministic, even if you want to dismiss molecular-level causality as underlying everything. Action and thought are no more "chosen" than looks are. How can anyone be actually be said to be "responsible" for anything? Did you choose to have high or low inhibition? Why does one person make choices better for themselves and another not? What innate qualities determine the kind of choice you will make? There is genotype and there is environment. You are born with something or it is produced within you in a kind of environmental dialectic: your surroundings change you, changing how you respond to your surroundings.

We are all automata, but one cannot live one's life with this idea hanging over them. It is necessary to ascribe blame, to develop an idea of "right", to assert yourself over others. Though you are a machine, it is better to run than break.

 

[SoCalSuifuel]

Things are pre-determined, but not everything, we don't know that much about the brain

How can some things be pre-determined and others not? In that case there would have to be something outside of the material, be it a soul, or some form of divinity. If one's personality is determined by genetics and environment, then would not their choices be as well?

 

[Deleted member 2798]

If one's personality is determined by genetics and environment, then would not their choices be as well?

A very neat and concise statement of the problem.

 

[SoCalSuifuel]

We are all automata, but one cannot live one's life with this idea hanging over them. It is necessary to ascribe blame, to develop an idea of "right", to assert yourself over others. Though you are a machine, it is better to run than break.

This is an interesting idea to me, as on one hand I certainly believe in cause and effect, and it is evident that many things in life are out of one's control, but at the same time I can't help but believe in right and wrong and that certain actions are immoral. But if I were to truly believe in destiny then an "evil" man is no more to blame for his station in life than a heroic one, and it's hard for me to know how to function in such a sort of existence.

 

[Limerencel]

I believe in a high degree of genetic determinism.
Beyond genes, our childhoods, upbringing, socio-economic status etc, influence us a lot as well.
If we have any "free will", I think it is a thin slice.

 

[Socratescel]

How can some things be pre-determined and others not? In that case there would have to be something outside of the material, be it a soul, or some form of divinity. If one's personality is determined by genetics and environment, then would not their choices be as well?

How a rock falls is pre-determined, what we do... I don't know, but it is heavily influenced by genetics and environment, so if we do have free will then it isn't of large proportion

 

[mviper]

It's worth distinguishing determinism from predictability. The universe may be fully deterministic, but our limited minds embedded within the universe, and our computers for that matter, don't possess the resources with which to fully simulate and predict future outcomes to 100% accuracy. Far from it. We can only see so far into the future and before things quickly become blurry. This gives us the illusion of free will, which in a way is almost as good as the real thing.

 

[SoCalSuifuel]

I don't know

This seems to be where I am as well. As humans we're limited to what our brains can process, and our brains are no more capable of seeing the entirety of the universe than a rat's brain is capable of processing the works of Shakespeare.

It's worth distinguishing determinism from predictability. The universe may be fully deterministic, but our limited minds embedded within the universe, and our computers for that matter, don't possess the resources with which to fully simulate and predict future outcomes to 100% accuracy. Far from it. We can only see so far into the future and before things quickly become blurry. This gives us the illusion of free will, which in a way is almost as good as the real thing.

Is to lose the illusion of free will then a bad thing? And once you lose it, is it ever possible to get it back? Without a belief in free will, our justice system becomes a farce since people aren't in control of anything. Is this entire line of thinking a road to nowhere?

 

[Deleted member 2798]

This is an interesting idea to me, as on one hand I certainly believe in cause and effect, and it is evident that many things in life are out of one's control, but at the same time I can't help but believe in right and wrong and that certain actions are immoral. But if I were to truly believe in destiny then an "evil" man is no more to blame for his station in life than a heroic one, and it's hard for me to know how to function in such a sort of existence.

Definitely. If you pare everything right down to the essence, it tends to induce passivity. Why hate cucks? Why hate whores? Their behavior hurts your own ability to act and live as you want to but no one can help it. Neither can you of course, but don't expect anyone else to grant you this - and that's where the problem lies. Consider ego as a will toward self-perpetuation, a necessary phantom. It is absolutely necessary to live with some veneer of delusion draped over the inner machinations of existence.

Is to lose the illusion of free will then a bad thing? And once you lose it, is it ever possible to get it back? Without a belief in free will, our justice system becomes a farce since people aren't in control of anything. Is this entire line of thinking a road to nowhere?

It is a functional problem - what works the best and for whom? It is why aberrant, destabilizing behavior needs to be controlled, whether or not it can be "helped".

 

[SoCalSuifuel]

Definitely. If you pare everything right down to the essence, it tends to induce passivity. Why hate cucks? Why hate whores? Their behavior hurts your own ability to act and live as you want to but no one can help it. Neither can you of course, but don't expect anyone else to grant you this - and that's where the problem lies. Consider ego as a will toward self-perpetuation, a necessary phantom. It is absolutely necessary to live with some veneer of delusion draped over the inner machinations of existence.



It is a functional problem - what works the best and for whom? It is why aberrant, destabilizing behavior needs to be controlled, whether or not it can be "helped".

You've given me a lot to think about, thank you.

 

[th62eathhts2]

Just flip a coin to make all your decisions for you.

 

[ColdLightOfDay]

Humans conflate the presence of a rational mind with the ability to freely determine their own actions. We have no greater free will than a dog, spider or any other animal, we just have a broader spectrum of behaviours within which to conduct ourselves. Of course it was essential for us to develop the illusion of free will and spiritual identity in order to prevent the anti-evolutionary influence of nihilistic fatalism. Every thought and motivation you could possibly have are products of your early conditioning and genetic makeup. This is in its own way a form of determinism, but not one for which there is some kind of prime mover.

 

[ropetomorrow]

u cant escape fate

 

[Postmaxxercel50k]

Things are pre-determined, but not everything, we don't know that much about the brain

ok GrAYcel

 

[Postmaxxercel50k]

Determinism

 

[trying to ascend]

Free will, because entropy and copenhagen interpretation

 

[RobertGarnicasAPedo]

If determinism is true, you have no reason to believe in determinism, since that would mean your thoughts were determined as well.

You need free will in order to have reason. Otherwise, you were required by the laws of physics to believe as you do.

A belief in determinism means an inability to justify any beliefs, including this very sentence.

 

[based_meme]

Free will, because entropy and copenhagen interpretation

How does entropy provide support for the free will thesis?