Do you believe in altruism and selflessness?

[Fontaine]

Morality is a very important and interesting question. For everything you do, society usually expects you to have a moral backing behind it, and this moral backing must be "it benefits many people, not just me". Capitalism and moral liberalism are increasingly under attack because people have noticed they tend to serve selfish ends; most redditors are communists, for instance, and I believe communism will make a strong political comeback in the West before the end of this century.

This obsession with altruism, the equivalence of morality with altruism, is the result of Christian heritage, mostly: pagan gods were unapologetically selfish, and Nietzsche or Evola demonstrated how our current conception of morality is uniquely Christian. But it has deeper roots, deeply intertwined with our evolutionary history. (In evolutionary psychology, altruism is now understood has an adaptation useful for individual survival; it reduces the occurence of violent conflict, for starters).

Personally, I don't believe in true altruism and I think every virtue-signaling normie/churchgoer is full of shit, and usually a disgusting hypocrite. This does not reduce the merit of their selfless acts, by the way. I like altruistic acts and try do be altruistic myself. I just don't believe that true selflessness can exist.

 

[Hunter]

in this selfish world filled with shitbags i dont see the point in having altruism. everyone else can burn.

 

[Figthcel]

No

I am in a position where world keeps kicking me in the balls.

No way I can help anyone.

 

[Deleted member 12256]

Why have morals anymore in this world , why follow altruism and do good for others , you will not get anything by following tha model. It's all cold give and take, do and receive. There is no greater good , you don't help unless you receive benefits. We must reshape the world like this and make a new model where everyone cares for himself more and more, we will die faster sure...i don't mind it.

 

[Mr. Ponzi]

I think it can have some explanation in biology. Let's take 2 scenarios and let us keep in mind that we are vessels for our selfish genes:
Assume we have a house on fire, the whole family is in there and one guy is on the outside. He can risk his life to save them or he can mind his own business.
Scenario 1: A gene without the altruistic mutation. The guy walks away, the family dies. The gene has now a small chance of spreading, as it's majority of holders are now gone.
Scenario 2: A gene with the altruistic mutation. The guy becomes a martyr and saves them, although he dies. The gene will continue to spread.
Now of course, these scenarios are complex and it's hard to reduce the whole algorithm.
I can personally experience a lot of pain while watching others suffer or hearing about their pain. I feel it deeply, even if there is nobody to see me suffer (in which case I could suspect myself of virtue signaling, conscious or unconscious).
Maybe there is a distinction here to be made between anti-suffering altruism (which I definetely think it's real, at least in my case) and pro-gain altruism, in which case I am somewhat skeptical.

 

[Deleted member 5861]

Pseudo-altrusts can burn in hell.

 

[Dude420]

Altruism is an adaptation used for certain contexts that serves our selfishness.

 

[Fontaine]

I think it can have some explanation in biology. Let's take 2 scenarios and let us keep in mind that we are vessels for our selfish genes:
Assume we have a house on fire, the whole family is in there and one guy is on the outside. He can risk his life to save them or he can mind his own business.
Scenario 1: A gene without the altruistic mutation. The guy walks away, the family dies. The gene has now a small chance of spreading, as it's majority of holders are now gone.
Scenario 2: A gene with the altruistic mutation. The guy becomes a martyr and saves them, although he dies. The gene will continue to spread.
Now of course, these scenarios are complex and it's hard to reduce the whole algorithm.
I can personally experience a lot of pain while watching others suffer or hearing about their pain. I feel it deeply, even if there is nobody to see me suffer (in which case I could suspect myself of virtue signaling, conscious or unconscious).
Maybe there is a distinction here to be made between anti-suffering altruism (which I definetely think it's real, at least in my case) and pro-gain altruism, in which case I am somewhat skeptical.

Yeah, this is already pretty much accepted in the scientific community. Dawkins wrote at length about the evolutionary origins of morality, and you have a book ("The Moral Animal" by Wright) entirely dedicated to it.

Altruism is an adaptation for certain context that serves our selfishness.

This is known but it doesn't prevent normies and churchgoers from virtue signaling stronger than ever

Capitalism is evil, rich people are evil, Vladimir Putin and Russia are evil (despite them doing the exact same thing as the US, defending their interests), yada yada yada

In normie minds, it's like Darwin and Nietzsche never happened - the funniest thing is that most of them are atheists! Do they realize their moral incantations are empty without the backing of a divinity?

 

[Ritalincel]

Yes bro

 

[The End]

Personally, I don't believe in true altruism and I think every virtue-signaling normie/churchgoer is full of shit, and usually a disgusting hypocrite. This does not reduce the merit of their selfless acts, by the way. I like altruistic acts and try do be altruistic myself. I just don't believe that true selflessness can exist.

This is my feeling. I think every action is selfish. People help others because it makes themselves feel good; therefor it cannot be true altruism, can it? It's a small but important distinction to make, in my opinion.

 

[Henry de Montherlant]

Animals are selfish and we are animals. Monotheisms, socialism, communism ... All ideologies promoting a kind of altruism ultimately failed to put an end to something that is really inherent in our very nature. And they always appeared to be rotten from the inside by manifestations of egoism (pride, wealth demonstration, cult of personnality, corruption, etc.). We can hate it all we want, but we can't change people's nature.

The only way out of this is basically suicide. But the fact is even if reality is awful, at least we know our world. Even if we hate our life, we know what to expect from it, generally speaking. Death, however, remains an eternal questioning.

 

[Inbuddhist]

I believe in it but not as an intentional action, a wish, or an ambition or desire or effort (all of those involves the ego, and are incompatible with a non selfish action), i believe it's possible only in the extremely rare cases when there is an ego loss, either through luck to have a certain disposition + years of meditation and training to let go of the attachments that fuel the ego etc, i mean really really exceptionnal cases, exceptional even among the self-declared enlightened people.i'd say on the level of 1 in 100 million, so altough i believe it's possible, i think it's extremely rare, it's as rare as having a fortune of 20 billion dollars.

 

[Dude420]

Yeah, this is already pretty much accepted in the scientific community. Dawkins wrote at length about the evolutionary origins of morality, and you have a book ("The Moral Animal" by Wright) entirely dedicated to it.

This is known but it doesn't prevent normies and churchgoers from virtue signaling stronger than ever

Capitalism is evil, rich people are evil, Vladimir Putin and Russia are evil (despite them doing the exact same thing as the US, defending their interests), yada yada yada

In normie minds, it's like Darwin and Nietzsche never happened - the funniest thing is that most of them are atheists! Do they realize their moral incantations are empty without the backing of a divinity?

Yeah I read the moral animal very insightful book in that regard.

Yeah virtue signaling is self-deception for themselves and others about their goodness.

Everyone is evil, the selfishness of those leaders was less repressed by altruistic social constructs, and they felt they could get away with it without getting punished for it because of the power they had over everyone else. Those who possessed power over everyone else showed what true human nature really is, since they had nothing restraining them to act differently (to factor the good of others in their actions because of possible consequences).

Yeah that's why I don't like the current representation of the bluepill, bluepill to me isn't purely about female nature and sexual dynamics, those individuals are disconnected from what is really real in regard to their own nature, the world we live in has repressed our selfish nature and make people believe in the dogma that human nature is inclined to be nice to one another under all circumstances. As if bullying for kids/teenager was an abnormality, instead of a natural manifestation of our human nature, the kids simply haven't fully repressed their selfish nature yet for the benefit of social cohesion.

 

[Modus Coperandi]

I believe communism will make a strong political comeback in the West before the end of this century.

why are you french people so obsessed with communism? It failed and it would fail again.

better dead then red tbhtbh

If everyone cares only for themselves
then everyone is taken care of, it's that simple.

 

[Fontaine]

why are you french people so obsessed with communism? It failed and it would fail again.

Predicting the comeback of communism does not mean endorsing it. As to communism in France, it's still big indeed (most university teachers / movie directors are Marxist... but they're dying off)

 

[Dude420]

@Fontaine Curious to know your thoughts on my previous post.

 

[CompleteFuckingLoser]

No

I am in a position where world keeps kicking me in the balls.

No way I can help anyone.

 

[Fontaine]

Yeah that's why I don't like the current representation of the bluepill, bluepill to me isn't purely about female nature and sexual dynamics, those individuals are disconnected from what is really real in regard to their own nature, the world we live in has repressed our selfish nature and make people believe in the dogma that human nature is inclined to be nice to one another under all circumstances. As if bullying for kids/teenager was an abnormality, instead of a natural manifestation of our human nature, the kids simply haven't fully repressed their selfish nature yet for the benefit of social cohesion.

Yes, we live under a weird regime of evopsy denial. That's why even dudes as consensual as Jordan Peterson or Steven Pinker provoke great controversy.

What happened is what we quickly went from a Christian world to an atheistic world, and the intellectuals of this atheistic world tried to pretend that religion wasn't necessary to act morally. They were wrong of course. They created a false "noble savage" picture that psychology research continually tears apart.

 

[Dude420]

Yes, we live under a weird regime of evopsy denial. That's why even dudes as consensual as Jordan Peterson or Steven Pinker provoke great controversy.

What happened is what we quickly went from a Christian world to an atheistic world, and the intellectuals of this atheistic world tried to pretend that religion wasn't necessary to act morally. They were wrong of course. They created a false "noble savage" picture that psychology research continually tears apart.

Agree in regards to the shift we are seeing, but are you saying that religion is necessary to act morally, law enforcement does a better job in enforcing moral behaviors than religious dogmas generally speaking.

 

[Fontaine]

Agree in regards to the shift we are seeing, but are you saying that religion is necessary to act morally, law enforcement does a better job in enforcing moral behaviors than religious dogmas in most cases.

Law enforcement only works if you get caught. It is not a sufficient deterrent for individuals who believe their chances of getting caught are low.

Law enforcement also only works if there is a law to punish the behavior. Turns out that punishing trivial occurrences like bullying is extremely hard from both a legal and enforcement framework. But God on the other hand... He watches you and keeps track of everything you do.

The Chinese Social Credit System was designed to remedy the flaws of usual law enforcement. But in my opinion, it will very quickly fail and be gamed by connected elites.

 

[Limerencel]

Many social animals have evolved to have a sense of fairness.
"I remember you helped me yesterday, so I'm willing to help you today"

Beyond the evolutionary adaptations, I'm sceptical of true altruism.

 

[Dude420]

Law enforcement only works if you get caught. It is not a sufficient deterrent for individuals who believe their chances of getting caught are low.

Law enforcement also only works if there is a law to punish the behavior. Turns out that punishing trivial occurrences like bullying is extremely hard from both a legal and enforcement framework. But God on the other hand... He watches you and keeps track of everything you do.

The Chinese Social Credit System was designed to remedy the flaws of usual law enforcement. But in my opinion, it will very quickly fail and be gamed by connected elites.

You could do an equation about how strongly imposed are the dogmas multiply by their degree of religious punishing implications multiply by how much you believe in it, versus the chance of getting caught by law enforcement multiply by the cost of the related sentence. A benign hurtful act like bullying, religious dogmas might be more deterrent causing higher repression (like whatever bad actions you do you increase your chance of never being forgiven and go to hell), but for something like the act of rape, 15+ years of prison probably has a higher deterrent effect.

 

[Unwanted]

in this selfish world filled with shitbags i dont see the point in having altruism. everyone else can burn.

 

[Blue Squirtle]

You're better off being selfish, the whole world is.

 

[Deleted member 1042]

“True” altruism is a mental disorder.

 

[Uther]

I have been thinking about morality alot lately, what it is and so on. I can't quite yet articulate my ideas but I will try. An action that society regards as moral is one that transforms or increases power immediately or potentially in the future for one self and others (which in it self can increase your power?), so ultimately you gain or exchange one form of "power" for another, without "taking" power from others in your society i.e.not "harming" others in the process of acquiring power for one self because in the future, the ones from whom you have taken (in the widest possible sense) can in the future exact "revenge", thus potentially you could lose what you have gained or more. I have come then to the conclusion that conservative action is most sensible. Conserve what you have and conservatively acquire power. I hope it makes sense.

 

[Darthmat]

Being good and benefiting the collective only matters when the collective benefits you in someway.
Look toward our leaders and supposed superiors and see if they practice the same retarded morals and feel good speak they preach to us.
This is a sociopathic society where we screw unto others as they screw unto you and you can only hope you don't attract the attention of any of the would be sharks who will fuck up your world. The Law is nothing but a sham and fraud that those in power twist and step over whenever they need too. Whenever someone talks about the greater good then what they really mean is (the jews, porky, big brother, great leaders) greater good.

Cole Macgrath describes it best.

"Hahaha! Because of me, Empire City is a wasteland. I've taken this place notch by notch, and it's never getting back up again. Kessler thought he was preparing me to face some beast, that I'd use my powers for the greater good. What an idiot. These powers are only good for one thing, letting me take what I want, when I want. In a place with no law, the strong take what they want, and the weak are their slaves, their playthings. And no one is stronger than me..."— Cole MacGrath, evil/Infamous playthrough ending

 

[Dude420]

Most of our altruistic inclinations are maladapted in this day and age anyway since we don't live in a small-scale society of members dependant on one of another anymore where the law of reciprocity largely dictated your relation with members of the group. Most of the people you interact with on a day to day base are people you won't see ever again or only for a short-term period.

 

[Flabcel Repulsive]

Religion is nonsense; pain feels the same to everyone, love is real.

 

[Deleted member 10124]

Morality is a very important and interesting question. For everything you do, society usually expects you to have a moral backing behind it, and this moral backing must be "it benefits many people, not just me". Capitalism and moral liberalism are increasingly under attack because people have noticed they tend to serve selfish ends; most redditors are communists, for instance, and I believe communism will make a strong political comeback in the West before the end of this century.

This obsession with altruism, the equivalence of morality with altruism, is the result of Christian heritage, mostly: pagan gods were unapologetically selfish, and Nietzsche or Evola demonstrated how our current conception of morality is uniquely Christian. But it has deeper roots, deeply intertwined with our evolutionary history. (In evolutionary psychology, altruism is now understood has an adaptation useful for individual survival; it reduces the occurence of violent conflict, for starters).

Personally, I don't believe in true altruism and I think every virtue-signaling normie/churchgoer is full of shit, and usually a disgusting hypocrite. This does not reduce the merit of their selfless acts, by the way. I like altruistic acts and try do be altruistic myself. I just don't believe that true selflessness can exist.

Completely agree.

Many social animals have evolved to have a sense of fairness.
"I remember you helped me yesterday, so I'm willing to help you today"

Beyond the evolutionary adaptations, I'm sceptical of true altruism.

Yeah this. Quid pro quo.

 

[Rice Cel]

No. I have limited time on earth and I want it to be good. I only help others if I can get some personal gain from it.

 

[Grotesque]

I believe that sex and things to obtain sex are the only things that matter, and morality is coping bullshit created by foolish just-world fallacists.

 

[BottomFeedER96]

Being selfish helps keep your genetic lineage intact

 

[Mainländer]

Agreed. All your acts are in your self-interest in one way or another. Even not wanting to see someone suffer is selfish, YOU don't want to see it. You know it happens all the fucking time and it's something intrinsic to life.