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I don't know what the original cuckit comment is referring to originally, and I won't comment on the trade-off for freedom for security, but will briefly comment about the idea of freedom itself instead to illustrate why sacrificing freedom can contribute to order.

Most people don't have the wisdom to exercise power with the big picture in mind and they become corrupted and self-serving. The same goes for freedom. Absolute freedom is anarchy and, as our friend the joker reminded us, is chaos. This is why we create laws and impose them on society by force. The average person doesn't have the intelligence, wisdom, and foresight to realize, understand, and accept that their self-serving actions can be and are typically immature and can easily be destructive to society at large.

Take driving, for instance. Yes, I know it's a privilege, not a right or a freedom, but the essence of the idea carries over. The next time you're driving on the road, for example, look for the asshole drivers (use the sun visor mirror, if you happen to be one of them) and see how they behave. Then imagine the potential damage their recklessness can cause. Potential accidents obviously. But what does that do? Ruin somebody's day? Yeah, definitely. Possibly severely injure or kill them too. It will involve the police, the insurance companies, waste hours of both (at fault and faultless driver) of their days on that day and on days to come, and it slows down traffic for the hundreds of other cards coming up behind.

And that's just driving. It doesn't touch upon the entire set of all possible actions we could take and the effects of chaotic behaviors - made possible by granting freedom to do x - but I'm sure you can think through them on your own.

The idea of 'anarchy = chaos' is a myth kept by the powerful to keep the cattle under control.

Funny how the politicians telling you that guns should be banned and you need the State to protect you are the same who have a PRIVATE SECURITY COMPANY keeping them safe with ARMED MEN going wherever they go.
 
The idea of 'anarchy = chaos' is a myth kept by the powerful to keep the cattle under control.

Funny how the politicians telling you that guns should be banned and you need the State to protect you are the same who have a PRIVATE SECURITY COMPANY keeping them safe with ARMED MEN going wherever they go.

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What does gun control have to do with what I said? That's a specific US constitutional right. That has nothing to do with the notion of freedom in general. We're not talking about guns, we're talking about whether giving or allowing more freedom (i.e., having less laws) means less order (more chaos). You can have a 1000 different laws surrounding guns with everybody owning one and still have plenty of order in a society.

Fucking burgercels and their guns, man. I swear, they'd be more forgiving of having their mothers raped, rather and insinuate the thought of having their guns taken away. Nobody cares about your precious guns bro. That's not the point.

JFL
 
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What does gun control have to do with what I said? That's a specific US constitutional right. That has nothing to do with the notion of freedom in general. We're not talking about guns, we're talking about whether giving or allowing more freedom (i.e., having less laws) means less order (more chaos). You can have a 1000 different laws surrounding guns with everybody owning one and still have plenty of order in a society.

Fucking burgercels and their guns, man. I swear, they'd be more forgiving of having their mothers raped, rather and insinuate the thought of having their guns taken away. Nobody cares about your precious guns bro. That's not the point.

JFL
Because you are part of the cattle who thinks the State protects people from the "chaos" of anarchy.
 
This was on Reddit in response to someone saying he was wrong to want less freedom for people. And he got 120 upvotes for this.
"Of course I don't support it, I'm not some autist who prefers freedom over order. Should people be free to kill themselves on opiates? Should women be free to whore around and not have kids and destroy their societies? Humanity has shown constantly it cannot be allowed to govern itself and needs a strong hand to keep it strangled and in place."
And this is not just about what he said about women.

I'm free to kill myself who's gonna stop me lol
 
Because you are part of the cattle who thinks the State protects people from the "chaos" of anarchy.

The state is a necessary evil, precisely because people are cattle and need to be protected from the wolves and hyenas.

Anarchic systems are like nitrogylcerin, they're barely stable and only if internal conditions are perfectly undisturbed. Even granting that every individual can be the equivalent of a sovereign nation unto themselves, they would still need to trade and deal with each other.

Over time, though, it will devolve into either feudalism with lords and serfs (the ones who couldn't effectively defend themselves and got "absorbed"), or some kind of syndicalism with their own internal hierarchies, all because of the wonderfulness of humans.

All variations of anti-state political philosophies are naive and idealistic. They ignore human nature or treat it naively. Every one of you thinks they'll survive, be self-sufficient, and never have to worry about other forces successfully butting into your existence. It's a kind like how every naive communist thinks they're the only one who capable of being the leader. Both are idealistic stupidity.
 
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They wouldn't want to give whores the same punishments for crimes as they do for incels. If an incel fucked a 14 year old they'd want him dead or in jail forever, but if a rostie fucked a 14 year old chad they'll say "it was consensual, and the boy most likely manipulated her". All cucked laws must be removed, and all faggot whiteknight cops must be removed, and all taxes that contribute to gynocentrism or enforcing gynocentric laws must be cut.

Exactly.

I don't think "order" is what OP is thinking of, he's spent too much time watching Fox News, all he has in his mind are the riots.
 
Exactly.

I don't think "order" is what OP is thinking of, he's spent too much time watching Fox News, all he has in his mind are the riots.
Only trump cucks say we need order, they don't even stop to think about their freedom when they say that.
 
Only trump cucks say we need order, they don't even stop to think about their freedom when they say that.

Course they don't. The moment a Democrat becomes POTUS they'll become the biggest opponents of executive power, but right now Trumpcucks want to pack the judiciary with sycophants, without considering the long-term consequences.
 
The state is a necessary evil, precisely because people are cattle and need to be protected from the wolves and hyenas.

But the state doesn't protect anybody. It's just a story that politicians tell.

Anarchic systems are like nitrogylcerin, they're barely stable and only if internal conditions are perfectly undisturbed.

Only in low-IQ shithole countries. Which would fail and go extinct on their own if the cucked governments of wealthier, freer countries would stop bailing them out.


Even granting that every individual can be the equivalent of a sovereign nation unto themselves, they would still need to trade and deal with each other.

Over time, though, it will devolve into either feudalism with lords and serfs (the ones who couldn't effectively defend themselves and got "absorbed"), or some kind of syndicalism with their own internal hierarchies, all because of the wonderfulness of humans.

It doesn't devolve if you're actively trimming government at all times. Which is what people on the right used to stand for. Now the only people who stand for that are uncucked, high-IQ people.

All variations of anti-state political philosophies are naive and idealistic. They ignore human nature or treat it naively. Every one of you thinks they'll survive, be self-sufficient, and never have to worry about other forces successfully butting into your existence. It's a kind like how every naive communist thinks they're the only one who capable of being the leader. Both are idealistic stupidity.

None of us ancaps believe that life isn't risky.
What we believe is that the government doesn't make life any safer, and comes at a high cost.

Lol @ comparing anarcho-capitalism to communism. Ridiculous. The former would improve incels' situation immensely and the latter would make it even worse than it is now.

I will repeat this over and over: why is it that women love communism and hate capitalism? Why is it that soycucks love communism and hate capitalism?
 
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Course they don't. The moment a Democrat becomes POTUS they'll become the biggest opponents of executive power, but right now Trumpcucks want to pack the judiciary with sycophants, without considering the long-term consequences.
They can't think for themselves, they got sucked into the fox news hive mind. Letting the mainstream media dictate your mortality is low iq no matter if it's from the left or right.
 
This was on Reddit in response to someone saying he was wrong to want less freedom for people. And he got 120 upvotes for this.
"Of course I don't support it, I'm not some autist who prefers freedom over order. Should people be free to kill themselves on opiates? Should women be free to whore around and not have kids and destroy their societies? Humanity has shown constantly it cannot be allowed to govern itself and needs a strong hand to keep it strangled and in place."
And this is not just about what he said about women.
Yes people should be free to overdose on opiates and women should be free to whore around. Fuck soys and their shit ideas.
 
But the state doesn't protect anybody. It's just a story that politicians tell.

I understand. The state protects itself and its agents serve the state, not the people. In theory the state is supposed to protect the citizen that gives them their taxes and labor. In practice nobody gives a fuck about anybody and everybody is out for themselves (see: the problem of the human condition).

The state does have a vested interest in protecting its tax cash cows: the citizens.

Only in low-IQ shithole countries. Which would fail and go extinct on their own if the cucked governments of wealthier, freer countries would stop bailing them out.

I don't see how this is a commentary on the stability of ancap systems in developed countries.

Low IQ shithole countries are unstable by default. That, however, does not imply that any politico-economic philosophy will necessarily be stable in a developed country. There's a special case of irony here where you must require a stable state system to use as a launch pad for an ancap system.

It doesn't devolve if you're actively trimming government at all times. Which is what people on the right used to stand for. Now the only people who stand for that are uncucked, high-IQ people.

How exactly does trimming government and slowly privatizing things over time NOT end in a corporate style feudalism, for example?

By privatizing enough "essential" things like public infrastructure maintenance, emergency services, and policing, you create a void that will only be filled by the competitive free market, which will eventually have a dominant player that monopolizes things. In effect they become exactly like the classic feudal lords who offer protection for the serfs from bandits and marauders in exchange for a cut of the fruits of their labor.

You pay your monthly or yearly police insurance to DynCorp and they deal with criminal cases involving or concerning you. You pay your invasion insurance to Blackwater in case privateers and freelance mercenaries decide to attack and pillage you.

Same shit, different face.

None of us ancaps believe that life isn't risky.
What we believe is that the government doesn't make life any safer, and comes at a high cost.

What exactly is that cost, and I suppose I should also ask, how much is it worth to you?

Lol @ comparing anarcho-capitalism to communism. Ridiculous. The former would improve incels' situation immensely and the latter would make it even worse than it is now.

You should read carefully. I'm not comparing the political philosophies of AC and communism, I'm comparing the naivety of idealists from both types of systems who commit the no true Scotsman fallacy when they want to argue things like "in real ancap/in real communism." The parallel is plain to see.

I will repeat this over and over: why is it that women love communism and hate capitalism? Why is it that soycucks love communism and hate capitalism?

OK. I'm not following you here.

I don't know. Why is it that women and soys love communism and hate capitalism? I want to know too.
 
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No, I do not believe the masses should have the "freedom" to destroy themselves.
It is the role of a leader to prevent such a thing from happening and guarantee the well-being of the people and create an environment that stimulates their development.

And it's not like in today's system (very liberal, supposedly anti-authoritarianism) there is no "authority". It is simply used in a roundabout way, it's not exactly in the power of a government or leader.
What you have to understand is that the ruling elite profits from the misery of the common man. The evil, greedy and corrupt elites use their money and influence to exert authority in their own way - to lead the people to the abyss for $$$
 
They can't think for themselves, they got sucked into the fox news hive mind. Letting the mainstream media dictate your mortality is low iq no matter if it's from the left or right.
 
The state is a necessary evil, precisely because people are cattle and need to be protected from the wolves and hyenas.

Anarchic systems are like nitrogylcerin, they're barely stable and only if internal conditions are perfectly undisturbed. Even granting that every individual can be the equivalent of a sovereign nation unto themselves, they would still need to trade and deal with each other.

Over time, though, it will devolve into either feudalism with lords and serfs (the ones who couldn't effectively defend themselves and got "absorbed"), or some kind of syndicalism with their own internal hierarchies, all because of the wonderfulness of humans.

All variations of anti-state political philosophies are naive and idealistic. They ignore human nature or treat it naively. Every one of you thinks they'll survive, be self-sufficient, and never have to worry about other forces successfully butting into your existence. It's a kind like how every naive communist thinks they're the only one who capable of being the leader. Both are idealistic stupidity.
I don't mind bastards ruling over cattle. The problem is that these same bastards use the resources they extract from the cattle to have power and attack those who are not cattle.
 
Exactly.

I don't think "order" is what OP is thinking of, he's spent too much time watching Fox News, all he has in his mind are the riots.
I never said I agreed with this guy. I just know a lot here genuinely want a dictatorship.
 
I understand. The state protects itself and its agents serve the state, not the people. In theory the state is supposed to protect the citizen that gives them their taxes and labor. In practice nobody gives a fuck about anybody and everybody is out for themselves (see: the problem of the human condition).

The state does have a vested interest in protecting its tax cash cows: the citizens.

The state ends up protecting nobody and wasting everyone's money, growing like a tumor, until gradually the entire house of cards collapses into full-blown socialism with much of the population starving and the government scrambling to cover up the atrocities it's caused.



I don't see how this is a commentary on the stability of ancap systems in developed countries.

Low IQ shithole countries are unstable by default. That, however, does not imply that any politico-economic philosophy will necessarily be stable in a developed country. There's a special case of irony here where you must require a stable state system to use as a launch pad for an ancap system.

No, you've got it all wrong. High intelligence (I shouldn't have used the term IQ) in a population inevitably results in capitalist behavior in the form of private property, free trade, and minimalist government. There is no launch pad. Only idiots require a launch pad.



How exactly does trimming government and slowly privatizing things over time NOT end in a corporate style feudalism, for example?

Because people are smart enough to realize when others are trying to manipulate the system to gain power. And they step in and prevent it, in the form of social shaming, boycots, etc. This works with a high enough general intelligence level.

By privatizing enough "essential" things like public infrastructure maintenance, emergency services, and policing, you create a void that will only be filled by the competitive free market, which will eventually have a dominant player that monopolizes things. In effect they become exactly like the classic feudal lords who offer protection for the serfs from bandits and marauders in exchange for a cut of the fruits of their labor.

The situation you're describing is only made worse by introducing government into the equation.

You pay your monthly or yearly police insurance to DynCorp and they deal with criminal cases involving or concerning you. You pay your invasion insurance to Blackwater in case privateers and freelance mercenaries decide to attack and pillage you.

Same shit, different face.

Again, government doesn't solve this. It merely exacerbates it.

What exactly is that cost, and I suppose I should also ask, how much is it worth to you?

The cost is foregone economic growth, and economic growth is by definition the only thing that should matter to anyone.

You should read carefully. I'm not comparing the political philosophies of AC and communism, I'm comparing the naivety of idealists from both types of systems who commit the no true Scotsman fallacy when they want to argue things like "in real ancap/in real communism." The parallel is plain to see.

Well, real ancap hasn't been tried, but unlike real communism, it really does work. This is empirically proven if you look at the historical evidence, as the freer countries on the continuum have always produced absurd amounts of wealth and human flourishing while the more socialist ones have always ended in mass starvation and despair.

OK. I'm not following you here.

I don't know. Why is it that women and soys love communism and hate capitalism? I want to know too.

Because capitalism benefits ugly men enormously and punishes simping and white-knighting.
 
The state ends up protecting nobody and wasting everyone's money, growing like a tumor, until gradually the entire house of cards collapses into full-blown socialism with much of the population starving and the government scrambling to cover up the atrocities it's caused.

Yeah, that's people being people for you.

"Protecting nobody." This is false. Institutions of government protect your rights and liberties (though that's slowly eroding too). They may not necessarily protect your corporeal person and you most likely have to rely on yourself for protection (JFL @ calling 911, instead of reaching for your weapon), but they will protect your natural rights. Even you can acknowledge that it's important to have some concrete body of government that (enforcibly) protects your abstract rights.

"Wasting everyone's money." This is, unfortunately, true. There is a lot of bloat and financial mismanagement. This is an argument against government expenditure practices, rather than the general case of spending money for society's benefit. NSA's annual black budget isn't there to make sure that I can walk the streets safely at night and not get robbed, it's there to protect the state's security interests against foreign governments and non-government actors seeking to destabilize the state's power, which, unfortunately, don't necessarily extend down to the individual level. So yes, there's plenty of wasted money. That's more of a feature of corruption and authoritarianism than it is of the concept of government.

No, you've got it all wrong. High intelligence (I shouldn't have used the term IQ) in a population inevitably results in capitalist behavior in the form of private property, free trade, and minimalist government. There is no launch pad. Only idiots require a launch pad.

How does it do that exactly? You will inevitably run into situations like the free rider problem where intelligent and rational actors will exploit the situation for their own benefit and all other actors will know what's happening. So in order to prevent being exploited, the others will behave rationally. The equilibrium strategy will then lead to a negative-sum outcome where you have to make a decision to lose less, instead of losing more.

Launch pad here means you need a stable base, an existing skeleton to work from and add to. How do you create an ancap system ex-nihilo (from nothing)? Just what is the step-by-step? And don't start with step 1 being, "remove the government." Suppose there is nothing of the sort to begin with.

Because people are smart enough to realize when others are trying to manipulate the system to gain power. And they step in and prevent it, in the form of social shaming, boycots, etc. This works with a high enough general intelligence level.

Social shaming? Boycots? Smart enough people? One of those three doesn't belong in the group.

The more intelligent people selfishly exploit that to gain power to begin with, because they see a flaw that they can exploit. But let's assume that everybody is equally intelligent and can immediately spot the flaw being exploited by one to gain power and react to that. What you end up with is a series of game-theoretical Mexican standoffs, where the first person to make a move forces everybody else to act and by not acting (opening fire) you end up getting hurt with the chance that another might survive the outcome. So the rational thing to do when one person opens fire is to shoot.

So who's going to take the economic loss and work towards fixing the flaw? Who's going to bear the cost? Everybody? Hey, wait a minute, that's-YOU CAN'T FORCE ME TO PITCH IN!

Then you don't pitch in and splinter off. We do, and gain some benefit from that situation. What do you think happens 200 years down the line from this fork in the road? Right, you get groups with their own agreements and rules on how to do things that benefit everyone in that special group, or nobody does anything and everybody incurs some individual cost, except all at once.

The situation you're describing is only made worse by introducing government into the equation.

The situation I'm describing is realistically what would happen in "real ancap." Some individuals will seek growth. This may mean partnerships, companies etc. They will acquire more resources, provide more services and/or products, and have more employees (all through private, free-market agreements and negotiations). This naturally resembles a form of tribalism. People will naturally tend to collect into groups, and all groups, whether they're united by ideology or the pursuit of profit, will have some leader at the helm (the CEO in this case).

This process of growth can occur in parallel for many other individuals. You may end up with a Pepsi-Coke situation where you have two main groups, or you may end up with an Amazon situation, where it has no rival. In both cases the process tends towards group formation with a leader. You will then have everybody else who is dependent on what this primary group (or two main groups) provides. This becomes terribly reminiscent of corporate feudalism. In fact, that's exactly what it becomes.

I almost wish you lived several hundred years just so we can could run this ancap experiment somewhere just so I could show you that this is what humans will eventually with such initial conditions.

Again, government doesn't solve this. It merely exacerbates it.

How does it exacerbate this? If you have money to pay for your own private army and your neighbor doesn't, nor does your neighbor provide any useful benefit to you in the form of special services or access to resources you need, you can - on a whim - decide that his property would look better as your garden. So you send your soldiers to tell your neighbor to leave. His options are: 1) comply, 2) fight (and live, given impossible odds, even if he's a cross between John Wick, John Rambo, and Robert McCall), 3) do nothing and die.

And you see this as potentially a more stable and prosperous society?

Privatization of such things as public security ripens it for exploitation. It's profit-driven, so it incentivizes things like mercenaries helping encourage or facilitate war so that business booms for them. If they're the only game in town, it's a rigged game. How is this different from government? Governments' raison d'être is not inherently profit, unlike a private body (corporation).

The cost is foregone economic growth, and economic growth is by definition the only thing that should matter to anyone.

Economic growth being the be all and end all for everyone? What?

You're going to have to justify this claim.

Well, real ancap hasn't been tried, but unlike real communism, it really does work. This is empirically proven if you look at the historical evidence, as the freer countries on the continuum have always produced absurd amounts of wealth and human flourishing while the more socialist ones have always ended in mass starvation and despair.

What historical evidence? You're arguing pro ancap as a superior alternative to classic democratic government, but then you're comparing it to socialist governments? What? "Guys, apples are the best fruit. They taste so much better than celery."

Because capitalism benefits ugly men enormously and punishes simping and white-knighting.

OK. I still don't see how this contributes to the discussion we're having, but whatever.
 
I don't agree.


Exactly. These people, for some reason, are under the impression that "security" would work in their favour.
Of course you don't. You are rich. You are already secure. You can fuck whores to your hearts content until you eventually betabuxx
 

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