Gaming Do you actually believe that space and time are imposed by our minds

[Caesercel]

And do not actually exist in the real world.

I can imagine how time could actually be an illusion but space? I can't imagine what the noumena would even look like or how its various processes would work without space giving it structure of causality.

 

[SocialzERo]

schizo thread n 134343443

 

[METALMILITA88]

Yes

 

[racoon4]

no

 

[Capable_Onion]

Maybe

 

[zephyr]

In philosophy, a noumenon (/ˈnuːmənɒn/, UK also /ˈnaʊ-/; from Greek: νoούμενον; plural noumena) is a posited object or an event that exists independently of human sense and/or perception.

If a tree falls in the forrest and you're not there to hear it, does it make a sound? Yes if you are holding a quantumly entangled branch.

It is worth pointing out that in the hypothetical 4th spatial dimension, shapes extend outside themselves.

They say that information could be the 5th state of matter. This could be the answer to gravity due to how Black holes destroy objects but possibly hold on to its information

Perhaps if space doesn't really exist, a combination of all the things above would take its place.

 

[TheProphetMuscle]

There’s just existence and matter but our brains are able to witness the universe and have thought. All time is is counting and existence

 

[Incelluss]

What if we inhabit a larger mind than our own, a cell within many

 

[Ducky]

Id like to know the truth but I cant let go of my ego.

 

[AnotherInsertCel1]

Puddle diving.

 

[Emba]

Maybe

 

[garloidcel]

You can't "imagine" the noumena -- that's a contradiction in terms. Whatever you imagine is, by definition, a phenomenon.

 

[aeoae]

And do not actually exist in the real world.

I can imagine how time could actually be an illusion but space? I can't imagine what the noumena would even look like or how its various processes would work without space giving it structure of causality.

I'm not very familiar with Kant so forgive me if I misunderstand something.

From physics we know that reality seems to behave differently depending on your dimensionality and your size. Things in and of themselves do exist, but what your seeing is a mental model of a physical model which exists as a gestalt of forces beyond the comprehension of the human mind. We do not perceive the full scope of reality because natural selection only selects for what's 'good enough' to sustain its lineage, and because our environment is limited to a narrow scale, our minds therefore are tethered to this scale.

'Noumena' is simply a set of all material objects at all scales of perception. For an analogy, go look at a Mandelbrot zoom. What you're seeing is only a small portion of an infinite fractal because our senses cannot perceive the infinitely large or the infinitely small. Make no mistake however, those scales 'exist' (I use quotes here because they are not physical objects, merely visualized patterns representing mathematical concepts).

 

[Caesercel]

You can't "imagine" the noumena -- that's a contradiction in terms. Whatever you imagine is, by definition, a phenomenon.

Yup. But the noumena does exist and the sensory impressions do come from something. How can that something even work without causality or the concept of space? There must be some events going on in noumena to create those sensory impressions right?

I'm not very familiar with Kant so forgive me if I misunderstand something.

From physics we know that reality seems to behave differently depending on your dimensionality and your size. Things in and of themselves do exist, but what your seeing is a mental model of a physical model which exists as a gestalt of forces beyond the comprehension of the human mind. We do not perceive the full scope of reality because natural selection only selects for what's 'good enough' to sustain its lineage, and because our environment is limited to a narrow scale, our minds therefore are tethered to this scale.

'Noumena' is simply a set of all material objects at all scales of perception. For an analogy, go look at a Mandelbrot zoom. What you're seeing is only a small portion of an infinite fractal because our senses cannot perceive the infinitely large or the infinitely small. Make no mistake however, those scales 'exist' (I use quotes here because they are not physical objects, merely visualized patterns representing mathematical concepts).

I do get what the noumena is, what I don't get is how it can function without some of the concepts supposedly imposed by the mind.

 

[aeoae]

I do get what the noumena is, what I don't get is how it can function without some of the concepts supposedly imposed by the mind.

I don't think I understand what you mean here. Which concepts are you talking about?
As far as I'm aware noumena still behaves with cause and effect, it's just that your mind filters out the complexity of it. If I pick up a pencil, even if you can't see the individual atoms, the pencil exists and it has left the table. But what you see isn't just 'pencil leaving table', you see both the image and inevitably your associations to that pencil and all pencils you've ever picked up.

Interesting thing I read this morning:
"People glance at all four objects in the display when searching for the target picture, but if there is an item that shares letters with the target, they look at that item much more than any of the other items that are not the target. When searching for a clock, people also focus their eyes on the cloud. This finding suggests that when people see each item, they are automatically thinking about the word that would describe that object."

When You See Objects, You Think Words

Vision and language are tightly interconnected

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[RuudVanNistelrooy]

There are some indications that timeline is not necessarily straightforward,as shown by quantum mechanics pronciples.Anyway its like i have a reality distortion field around me,already 5 months into 2022 and no girl hold an eye contact,they even move away from me when i a m walking past them.

 

[nystagmuscel]

I believe in the multiverse theory, at least partly so… kind of?

 

[Caesercel]

I don't think I understand what you mean here. Which concepts are you talking about?
As far as I'm aware noumena still behaves with cause and effect, it's just that your mind filters out the complexity of it. If I pick up a pencil, even if you can't see the individual atoms, the pencil exists and it has left the table. But what you see isn't just 'pencil leaving table', you see both the image and inevitably your associations to that pencil and all pencils you've ever picked up.

Interesting thing I read this morning:
"People glance at all four objects in the display when searching for the target picture, but if there is an item that shares letters with the target, they look at that item much more than any of the other items that are not the target. When searching for a clock, people also focus their eyes on the cloud. This finding suggests that when people see each item, they are automatically thinking about the word that would describe that object."

When You See Objects, You Think Words

Vision and language are tightly interconnected

www.psychologytoday.com

The event of a pencil being lifted off a table implies the existence of space between the table and pencil in the nuomena. Also the act of lifting can only exist if time does too.

This would mean that space and time are fundamental to the nuomena and not properties imposed by our mind to a spaceless and timeless world.

 

[aeoae]

The event of a pencil being lifted off a table implies the existence of space between the table and pencil in the nuomena. Also the act of lifting can only exist if time does too.

This would mean that space and time are fundamental to the nuomena and not properties imposed by our mind to a spaceless and timeless world.

That's a good question. Let me think about it for a bit.

 

[garloidcel]

Yup. But the noumena does exist and the sensory impressions do come from something. How can that something even work without causality or the concept of space? There must be some events going on in noumena to create those sensory impressions right?

It’s possible to conceive of causality without space, and without even committing to Kant’s transcendental idealism. I’ll give you an analogy.

Suppose you’re programming a 2D game. You create an object, say, a spaceship. You then give it some attributes: HP, size, position (x, y coordinates), and the like. These attributes aren’t spatial in and of themselves, they’re purely quantitative. You can then have this object interact with other objects in the game simply by changing those properties. If the player moves the joystick to the right, for example, you capture that input and modify the spaceship object’s position attribute. If its coordinates happen to overlap with an asteroid’s, you subtract from its HP. And so on. In principle, you can play this game without even representing it visually i.e., without having any graphics -- it’s pure logic. The graphics are only a layer built on top of it to make it fun to play.

The external world can be like that (but I’m not saying that it is). There are substances (objects) and accidents (attributes). Depending on the substance's accidents, its spatial representation in our minds would change. In other words, what we see is nothing more than a user interface, an illusion that makes it easier to interact with the outside world.

Alternatively,

the noumena does exist

You can become a based idealist and deny the noumena altogether, or just reduce it all to mind and representation.

 

[grondilu]

Well, there is Planck's principle, in which I personally believe. There are lots of ways to express it, but I like to do it by asking rhe following question :

Do you think there is a difference, even conceptually, between an empty universe and an universe that doesn't exist?

Notice that it is eerly similar to the paradox of the tree falling in a forest, mentioned already in this thread. The fact that this old paradox, along with Zeno's paradoxes, are relevant to modern physics is kind of mindblowing tbh ngl.

 

[LesscoBlob]

schizo thread n 134343443

 

[LesscoBlob]

Time is an illusion created by the clock corporations so they can sell clocks.