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Discussion Christiancels!!!! GTFIH! Do you believe in a free will?

VainHireling

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I don't. For many reasons:
  1. When one's born as an incel, possibilities are severely restricted
  2. Biology and psychology are at work 24/7
  3. God's intelligence is so superior to ours, he has everything planned out for everyone:
    1. Who's about to be salvaged.
    2. Who's going to be a prophet
    3. Even the evil ones fulfill God's Plan
Refutation of free-will gospel is described by TULIP abbrevation, each letter stands for:
Total depravity- (psalm 51:5) because of the fall by Adam and Eve, every person born into the world is born into
original sin. Original sin is the state of loving evil and hating righteousness (John 3:19). Mankind is a slave to sin (Rom
8:20) until delivered from it by Christ’s Atonement made manifest in the heart. (John 8:36). Original sin has so
corrupted the heart of man that it prevents man from seeking true salvation (Romans 3:11). God describes the natural
man under the curse as being dead (Ephesians 2:1). He does so to make the point that being dead you can do nothing, not
even seek Him, as seen in Romans 3:11.
Unconditional elect - (1 Peter 1:2, Isaiah 45:3-10, Titus 1:1) God does not base His election on anything He sees in
the individual. He chooses according to His will and not ours (Ephesians 1:4) Nor is His election based on foreseen
faith, works, your decision, etc. The only thing God foresaw in mankind was love of iniquity and hatred of Himself. This
is why the prophet proclaims, “Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made
like unto Gomorrah.” (Romans 9:29) God’s sovereign choice of man is explained clearly in:
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of
God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder
shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is
there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of
him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
God goes on to explain that He is the potter and we are the clay (Romans 9:21), making one vessel a vessel of
Honor and another a vessel of dishonor according to His will. Now, if He is waiting to act on our choice, (as is being
taught in the pulpits today) that would make us the sole determiner of our destiny and He would then be submissive to
our will, making us the potter and Him the clay. This has been the Devil’s Gospel from the very beginning.....
Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day
ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Implies choice)
Limited Atonement - Christ shed His blood and paid the price for the sins of His elect, those predestinated to eternal
life by the Father (Acts 20:28). If Christ Died for all then all would be saved. Christ did not come to make possible the
salvation of all, but to make sure the salvation of His elect. (John 6:37) Nowhere does scripture state that Christ came to
pay for the sins of every person, but it does state that He came to pay for the sins of many (Matt 26:28), (Isaiah 53:12).
Now the false gospel claims that God loves everyone, therefore he gave His Son for everyone. They take John
3:16 out of context to support their cause, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...”
....World in this context cannot mean every person because God clearly hates some people as seen in (Romans 9:13)
Therefore, for the scripture not to contradict itself, the word “world” in context must be every child of God, from Genesis
to Revelation. Those found in the covenant to Abraham from God, as possessing the “seed,” which is Christ. (Galations
3:16) ............... (2Cor 2:19) is a prime example of how “world” is not always used to describe “every person”
Irresistible grace - examining the operation of the Spirit will help us to understand this concept.
1. The Law is applied to the natural man, which tells him he is dead in sins. (Romans 7:9)
2. The natural man then searches the scriptures for salvation (Romans 10:17)
3. If the natural man has the seed of Christ within him, the seed will produce life when watered by the Word,
causing the birth of the new man in Christ (Romans 8: 11-16)
4. The new convert is now called a believer, not because he decided by his own free will to choose Christ, but
because he believes on the work which took place within him in by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:1, Philipians
2:13)
You do not have Faith to believe; you have received Faith (presence of Christ - Ephesians 2:8), therefore you believe.
Christ never asked anybody to accept Him, He asked if they believed. Because belief is the consequence of the Holy
Spirit working to prepare the heart to receive His Word. So explains the parable of the seed and the sower in Luke 4. The
“good ground” (representing the heart of man) was the only one to receive the Word. Ground does not cultivate itself, it
was prepared in advance by the Spirit of God!
And:
P erseverance of the Saints - God’s children cannot loose their salvation because it was never theirs to begin with.
(Psalm 3:8) The Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied. (Philippians 1:6, John
10:27-30) If we were born of the Father’s will, as explained in John 1: 12-13, nothing and no one will overthrow it
(including yourself), because He is Almighty and we are not. Some indeed turn back to perdition (Hebrews 10:39), but it
is because they were never His to begin with. Many seek after Christ and salvation, but most do not attain it because they
have not the ability, which is “Christ”, “the seed” within them. After all, “many are called, but few are chosen”.
This blessed doctrine which exalts the majesty and sovereignty of God in all His Glory is today called Calvinism. But it’s
true name is “The Gospel”. All of God’s champions down through the ages believed this Gospel such as.... Augustine,
Huss, Calvin, Whitfield, Bunyan, Murry, Luther, Spurgeon, Tyndale, Knox, Pink, Newton, etc. The “Free will” camp
has; Arminius, Wesley, the whole Roman Catholic system (including her Jesuits), all the lukewarm pastors of today (Rick
Warren, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, ect). Also, be it noted, all the satanic religions of the world boast of mans’s “free
will,” such as, Mormons, Latter Day Saints, Buddhists, Islam, the Church of Satan, etc. All religious beliefs in the world
other than those who hold to the true doctrine of Christ (A.K.A. - the narrow way that leadeth unto life), believe in the
free-will of man. (The broad way that leadeth to destruction)
This is because the “free will” gospel is the doctrine of devils. It exalts man and his desires and authority, and puts God at
the foot of man to await man’s sovereign choice. It makes God out to be no more than a helpless spectator. Those who
preach against Christ doctrine revealed to us as T.U.L.I.P are nothing more than wells without water (2 Peter 2:17)
1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone
which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of
offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Acts 13:47 - For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou
shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and
glorified the Word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Daniel 4:35 - “he does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and
none can stay His hand!”
 
RandomGuy

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Persecuted

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>TULIP
Opinion discarded
 
DottKo334

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We do not have a free will, even though I am not Christian.
 
Opus132

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Your life is predestined yes. Free will doesn't mean you have the power to alter reality, your own reality least of all. It means you have the freedom to make a choice between that which takes you closer to God and that which takes you away from him.

God exists in a reality that is outside time so all possible outcomes are already a fait accompli from his point of view the question has nothing to do with changing outcomes in a way he didn't forsee because all possibilities are mapped out in advance and all temporal casuality is purely relative to begin with. But within this "space" of predetermined outcomes there is an ontological vertical descends from high to lower "possibilities" and your "free" will is merely the freedom to choose your place within this ontological chain of possible states of being.

Essentially, what you are is a "point of view". You are a relative "I" that is separate from the higher and cosmic "I" of God, and your "choice" concerns where this relative "I" of yours is located in relation to the only true Self there is, which is that of God. It's a choice between reality and illusion, or delusion i should say.
 
TheProphetMuscle

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Imagine believing in a fairytale written thousands of years ago. I have free will. I can go make a sandwich or keep posting here
 
VainHireling

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Your life is predestined yes. Free will doesn't mean you have the power to alter reality, your own reality least of all. It means you have the freedom to make a choice between that which takes you closer to God and that which takes you away from him.

God exists in a reality that is outside time so all possible outcomes are already a fait accompli from his point of view the question has nothing to do with changing outcomes in a way he didn't forsee because all possibilities are mapped out in advance and all temporal casuality is purely relative to begin with. But within this "space" of predetermined outcomes there is an ontological vertical descends from high to lower "possibilities" and your "free" will is merely the freedom to choose your place within this ontological chain of possible states of being.

Essentially, what you are is a "point of view". You are a relative "I" that is separate from the higher and cosmic "I" of God, and your "choice" concerns where this relative "I" of yours is located in relation to the only true Self there is, which is that of God. It's a choice between reality and illusion, or delusion i should say.
Fantastic response, that really adds to the discussion. I think I have expressed my POV quite poorly. We can make choices as you said getting us closer to God or further, and as you said every outcome is predicted by God.
 
VainHireling

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Imagine believing in a fairytale written thousands of years ago. I have free will. I can go make a sandwich or keep posting here
WHAT A CHOICE YOU HAVE THERE!!!! I BET THIS IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT IN YOUR LIFE, :feelshaha::feelshaha::feelshaha:
 
TheProphetMuscle

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WHAT A CHOICE YOU HAVE THERE!!!! I BET THIS IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT IN YOUR LIFE, :feelshaha::feelshaha::feelshaha:
There’s lots of things i can do. Even based things. The only thing is we live in a society where we don’t have access to some things other people do
 
VainHireling

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There’s lots of things i can do. Even based things. The only thing is we live in a society where we don’t have access to some things other people do
And don't we have access to thing others do?
 
TheProphetMuscle

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And don't we have access to thing others do?
Yea like being able to get relationships or support from society like women do or being born in a wealthy. Do you believe in a loving god?
 
TheProphetMuscle

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Can you choose to stop being a truecel tho? No, you can't
You can choose to do othER things in video games. We live in a society where we don’t have access to things things other more fortunate people do. Like being born in a wealthy family compared to being born in Africa
 
VainHireling

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Yea like being able to get relationships or support from society like women do or being born in a wealthy. Do you believe in a loving god?
Well, I ate one word from the question, it should've been: And why don't we have access to things others do?
Why is your consciousness in a, let's say, truecel-tier body, not Chads?

I believe in God. I cannot call him to appear physically to prove his existence, because I'm way, way, waaaay too inferior to Him in any way.
And atheists have trouble completely disproving his existence.
His intelligence far exceeds ours, we perceive only very small portion of his abilities.
To give you an example: Evolution. Some monkeys turning into humans, lizards into mammals belongs to microevolution.
Previous steps of forming life - Big Bang, thermonuclear reactions forming more complex atoms, and those atoms building organic compounds, all these phenomena seem to form organic, inteligent life, step by step, instead of going the easy way and undergoing reactions that simply diffuse energy.

God's not loving, that's true. But we receive enough grace to avoid far greater trouble and help, when things really go south (personal experience)
 
Deleted member 41988

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I'm not a christiancel
 
Progeny of Horus

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I'm ex-Muslim and I'm inclined to believe in a semblance of it, although I consider myself bluepilled in that regard.
 
cvh1991

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I don't. For many reasons:
  1. When one's born as an incel, possibilities are severely restricted
  2. Biology and psychology are at work 24/7
  3. God's intelligence is so superior to ours, he has everything planned out for everyone:
    1. Who's about to be salvaged.
    2. Who's going to be a prophet
    3. Even the evil ones fulfill God's Plan
Refutation of free-will gospel is described by TULIP abbrevation, each letter stands for:




And:
I used to be a Christian and was for most of my adult life. I’m not anymore, but even when I was towards the end I stopped believing in free will.

On some level I am a machine that acts to get what it wants.

People are animals and we have a “program” that directs us. People act to meet their needs (to live, to love and be loved, variety, to feel important, sex, and so on).

On the atomic level you can get into Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle and the like (you don’t know necessarily where the electron is going to be), but all the evidence we have seems to point towards either things being deterministic, random, or some combination of the two.

Of course all of this also depends on how we define free will — there are the philosophical compatibilists for example. If we say free will are my attempts at getting what I want or some such then sure it exists but I don’t think most people define free will like that.

For those of you they are still religious, that’s all fine and dandy to each their own and all that, but it is hilarious that Christ-fags are so committed to the notion that Yahweh is “good”.

The things he’s supposedly done any man would be considered the biggest monster of all time. Take the great flood — if a man commits genocide we call him a monster but when god(s) does it Christfags make excuses for him or shift the blame.

Consider heaven and hell — I put to you that zero people with a functioning brain and even the most basic of problem solving ability would ever choose to reject god and Christianity because that means eternal suffering in hell.

The only explanation is that 1) they genuinely don’t believe Christianity is true or 2) they are actually mentally retarded and their brains don’t work or they’d be able to solve the most basic cost analysis problem you could contrive. Having your way in this life in exchange for eternal suffering is a horrible cost analysis decision that you would have to be Forrest Gump make and that begs the question — if you’re so stupid that you can’t make choices for your own self interest is it really “just” for god to damn you for it? Infinite suffering for finite crimes does not a “good” god make. Sure a shitty evil god could do that, but Christian’s are high off their rocker on rocket fuel if they honestly believe god is “good”.

Consider Adam and Eve — the story goes that they had no concept of right from wrong before eating the fruit. But if that’s so then how can they be expected to know that eating the fruit is wrong until after they’ve done it? In the story they clearly feel guilt, fear, and remorse after eating the fruit so they obviously didn’t understand it was wrong beforehand.

For god to punish all of humanity for that (he’s also supposedly all knowing so he knew that would happen) is like chopping off a child’s hand because they took a cookie from the cookie that they were told not to (and then also chopping off the hands of all of that poor kid’s eventual offspring) — it’s such an overbearing punishment that doesn’t fit the crime and like the child they didn’t really have wisdom or understanding until post fruit. Yahweh is also punishing the offspring for the sins of the father — that’s retarded and evil. If my own father murdered a man why should I be punished for his crime? Humans hold each other to better standards than we hold god for some baffling reason.

The Epicurus Trilemma has no convincing come back from religion seems to me.
 
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Billowel

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I used to be a Christian and was for most of my adult life. I’m not anymore, but even when I was towards the end I stopped believing in free will.

On some level I am a machine that acts to get what it wants.

People are animals and we have a “program” that directs us. People act to meet their needs (to live, to love and be loved, variety, to feel important, sex, and so on).

On the atomic level you can get into Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle and the like (you don’t know necessarily where the electron is going to be), but all the evidence we have seems to point towards either things being deterministic, random, or some combination of the two.

Of course all of this also depends on how we define free will — there are the philosophical compatibilists for example. If we say free will are my attempts at getting what I want or some such then sure it exists but I don’t think most people define free will like that.

For those of you they are still religious, that’s all fine and dandy to each their own and all that, but it is hilarious that Christ-fags are so committed to the notion that Yahweh is “good”.

The things he’s supposedly done any man would be considered the biggest monster of all time. Take the great flood — if a man commits genocide we call him a monster but when god(s) does it Christfags make excuses for him or shift the blame.

Consider heaven and hell — I put to you that zero people with a functioning brain and even the most basic of problem solving ability would ever choose to reject god and Christianity because that means eternal suffering in hell.

The only explanation is that 1) they genuinely don’t believe Christianity is true or 2) they are actually mentally retarded and their brains don’t work or they’d be able to solve the most basic cost analysis problem you could contrive. Having your way in this life in exchange for eternal suffering is a horrible cost analysis decision that you would have to be Forrest Gump make and that begs the question — if you’re so stupid that you can’t make choices for your own self interest is it really “just” for god to damn you for it? Infinite suffering for finite crimes does not a “good” god make. Sure a shitty evil god could do that, but Christian’s are high off their rocker on rocket fuel if they honestly believe god is “good”.

Consider Adam and Eve — the story goes that they had no concept of right from wrong before eating the fruit. But if that’s so then how can they be expected to know that eating the fruit is wrong until after they’ve done it? In the story they clearly feel guilt, fear, and remorse after eating the fruit so they obviously didn’t understand it was wrong beforehand.

For god to punish all of humanity for that (he’s also supposedly all knowing so he knew that would happen) is like chopping off a child’s hand because they took a cookie from the cookie that they were told not to (and then also chopping off the hands of all of that poor kid’s eventual offspring) — it’s such an overbearing punishment that doesn’t fit the crime and like the child they didn’t really have wisdom or understanding until post fruit. Yahweh is also punishing the offspring for the sins of the father — that’s retarded and evil. If my own father murdered a man why should I be punished for his crime? Humans hold each other to better standards than we hold god for some baffling reason.

The Epicurus Trilemma has no convincing come back from religion seems to me.
if you don't mind me asking,why did you stop believing? a lot of people here lost their faith in god,when they encountered and accepted the blackpill,so i am curious on what happened for you to leave.
 
cvh1991

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if you don't mind me asking,why did you stop believing? a lot of people here lost their faith in god,when they encountered and accepted the blackpill,so i am curious on what happened for you to leave.
Took me years to deconvert since I was so deeply steeped in religion all my life.

In hindsight I actually regret going down that rabbit whole because I was far happier believing a lie. Now I have to deal with the fear of death and I know longer believe in eternal life in paradise and that’s a blow.

I also am now despised by my own family for no longer being a follower of their religion.

As for “why” I even questioned it to begin with in vague terms (I don’t want to be too specific as I never want my real identity leaked because my whole life would be ruined/I’d lose my job probably/I’d lose anything close to a friend I have if people knew what I actually think per my participation on this forum) — I experienced a severely traumatic event and had an existential crisis following it. I ended up reevaluating everything I ever believed in and it took years to deconvert from my religion (I read many many books both for and against Christianity as well as other religions in that time).

During that period of time was also when I became blackpilled. I read the studies and it became clear that looks/genetics and financial standing are the most important factors in determining one’s expected quality of life. It also became clear to me that in modern western society it is women, not men as we’ve been led to believe (men are indoctrinated basically in the west), who are the privileged sex and it’s not even especially close. Probably the majority of men have no safety net and are expected to be the work horse tax payers of society and for what? Even men that do get married often end up simply betabux — their wives have no real attraction to them and in the end they’re frequently divorce raped at which point their wives coast of their ex husband’s hard work/resources and almost always get the kids to boot. Happened to my own father, happens all the time. The game is rigged.

Some days I just wanna rope tbh — like most men, I’ll have to work my life away at a job I hate to get by and keep a roof over my head. I’ll never have the ability to be a father or have a family of my own which is something women can’t understand because lots of men are always willing to be their partner. I genuinely would’ve been better off never having been born (this is why I don’t oppose abortion — for some kids it’s a genuine kindness seems to me).
 
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Billowel

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Took me years to deconvert since I was so deeply steeped in religion all my life.

In hindsight I actually regret going down that rabbit whole because I was far happier believing a lie. Now I have to deal with the fear of death and I know longer believe in eternal life in paradise and that’s a blow.

I also am now despised by my own family for no longer being a follower of their religion.

As for “why” I even questioned it to begin with in vague terms (I don’t want to be too specific as I never want my real identity leaked because my whole life would be ruined/I’d lose my job probably/I’d lose anything close to a friend I have if people knew what I actually think per my participation on this forum) — I experienced a severely traumatic event and had an existential crisis following it. I ended up reevaluating everything I ever believed in and it took years to deconvert from my religion (I read many many books both for and against Christianity as well as other religions in that time).

During that period of time was also when I became blackpilled. I read the studies and it became clear that looks/genetics and financial standing are the most important factors in determining one’s expected quality of life. It also became clear to me that in modern western society it is women, not men as we’ve been led to believe (men are indoctrinated basically in the west), who are the privileged sex and it’s not even especially close. Probably the majority of men have no safety net and are expected to be the work horse tax payers of society and for what? Even men that do get married often end up simply betabux — their wives have no real attraction to them and in the end they’re frequently divorce raped at which their wives coast of their ex husband’s hard work/resources and take the kids the boot. Happened to my own father, happens all the time. The game is rigged.
i doubt you could get targetted this way,but i understand the paranoia.have you ever spoken to a dominician friar?they study philosophy and scriptirue intensely for multiple years,and many of them would be willing to help you in whatever questions you might have,since many of their jobs are teaching about the faith.even if you simply don't believe in god,you could ask them for help.just look up the closest dominician friarhood,see if they offer latin mass,and message one of the friars.i don't know what books you read that were for or agaisn't,nor what made you really turn around so it's hard to say.i suppose you could check the books in my signature,since maybe there is something there that might help you.

i don't usually like asking all these questions all of a sudden,but since you yourself said that you hated *going down the rabbithole*,i hope that mu questions won't piss you off




was the blackpill what really turned you around from god,or was it some other argument?were you catholic,prostestant etc etc.


i turned around from the faith as a kid since i simply couldn't believe that god liked me much less loved me as i back then already hated life.don't think our stories are very similar,but i symphatise a bit with what you have told me.
 
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Your life is predestined yes. Free will doesn't mean you have the power to alter reality, your own reality least of all. It means you have the freedom to make a choice between that which takes you closer to God and that which takes you away from him.

God exists in a reality that is outside time so all possible outcomes are already a fait accompli from his point of view the question has nothing to do with changing outcomes in a way he didn't forsee because all possibilities are mapped out in advance and all temporal casuality is purely relative to begin with. But within this "space" of predetermined outcomes there is an ontological vertical descends from high to lower "possibilities" and your "free" will is merely the freedom to choose your place within this ontological chain of possible states of being.

Essentially, what you are is a "point of view". You are a relative "I" that is separate from the higher and cosmic "I" of God, and your "choice" concerns where this relative "I" of yours is located in relation to the only true Self there is, which is that of God. It's a choice between reality and illusion, or delusion i should say.
You're one of the few people who understands and can reconcile free will and predestination. Well done.
 
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If God exists, He's an evil fuck not worthy of worship.
 
i_want_emo_gf

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Christianity is cope
 
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Posts
4,213
Online
27d 16h 32m
Imagine believing in a fairytale written thousands of years ago. I have free will. I can go make a sandwich or keep posting here
Do you give out prophecies on discord?
 

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