Soy Bluepilled trait: Thinking there can be objective morality without a God.

[Deleted member 39864]

There's a reason people call atheists pseudointellectuals, and it's because they say stupid stuff like this. They try and say stuff such as morality can be objective, when morality changes vastly over time periods and varies through different cultures. Some will create some system like 'ethics' (which is really just morality, let's be honest), and even then it's flawed because there are many ethical schools of thought.

Another point is, why care about morality as an atheist? After you die you won't be punished for your own sins or wrongdoings. IMO this is a case of wanting to eat your cake and have it too. Atheists want to stroke their egos as being 'good people', but when adversity strikes, they can just abandon their morals and act self serving, and they don't have to worry about any sort of punishment in the afterlife.

The reality is the only way objective morality can exist is if there is a God that exists, one which is incomprehensibly wiser than all of us. Whether you choose to believe in it is your choice, but this idea of objective morality in a godless universe is just a self righteous cope for atheists, often found on reddit but really can be found all over the internet.

 

[Deleted member 41988]

And god isn't real

 

[Linesnap99]

based but not high iq. although there is no objective morality one can have morality without the existence of god. morality is closely related to survival.

 

[Deleted member 39864]

based but not high iq. although there is no objective morality one can have morality without the existence of god. morality is closely related to survival.

I said OBJECTIVE morality, having your own morality as an atheist is subjective.

 

[Arabcel011]

one which is incomprehensibly wiser than all of us.

If God was wise why did he create humans and the universe when he doesn't have a reason to do so? He's not gaining anything from it therefore there's no reason for him to do it, it's unnecessary, and God doing unnecessary things is the total opposite of wisdom.

 

[Deleted member 39864]

If God was wise why did he create humans and the universe when he doesn't have a reason to do so? He's not gaining anything from it therefore there's no reason for him to do it, it's unnecessary, and God doing unnecessary things is the total opposite of wisdom.

God has reasons for everything.

You're asking a mere mortal like myself the reasoning behind God and his actions.

This is why people call atheists pseudointellectucals.

 

[Linesnap99]

I said OBJECTIVE morality, having your own morality as an atheist is subjective.

the thread is fine but pointless, words are mere form of communication, remove the language and the morality will automatically reduce to its basic form.

 

[Linesnap99]

God has reasons for everything.

nice one

 

[Deleted member 39864]

the thread is fine but pointless, words are mere form of communication, remove the language and the morality will automatically reduce to its basic form.

What the fuck is this supposed to mean and how is it relevant to objective vs subjective morality?

You're just going off on a tangent, fact is, objective morality can only exist in a universe with God.

 

[Arabcel011]

God has reasons for everything.

You're asking a mere mortal like myself the reasoning behind God and his actions.

If God and his actions are beyond our comprehension then how did you come to the conclusion that he has a reason for everything?

 

[Linesnap99]

You're just going off on a tangent, fact is, objective morality can only exist in a universe with God.

well animals have shown to have morality and i am sure they dont have a god either

 

[Arabcel011]

This is why people call atheists pseudointellectucals.

I'm not an atheist btw, I'm agnostic, I'm not 100% sure that he doesn't exist.

 

[EstoniaPill]

Good thread. Most people just can't comprehend the fact that there are no objective morals in this realm

 

[K9Otaku]

There's a reason people call atheists pseudointellectuals, and it's because they say stupid stuff like this. They try and say stuff such as morality can be objective, when morality changes vastly over time periods and varies through different cultures. Some will create some system like 'ethics' (which is really just morality, let's be honest), and even then it's flawed because there are many ethical schools of thought.

Another point is, why care about morality as an atheist? After you die you won't be punished for your own sins or wrongdoings. IMO this is a case of wanting to eat your cake and have it too. Atheists want to stroke their egos as being 'good people', but when adversity strikes, they can just abandon their morals and act self serving, and they don't have to worry about any sort of punishment in the afterlife.

The reality is the only way objective morality can exist is if there is a God that exists, one which is incomprehensibly wiser than all of us. Whether you choose to believe in it is your choice, but this idea of objective morality in a godless universe is just a self righteous cope for atheists, often found on reddit but really can be found all over the internet.

Based on the above, it seems that you are a theist. What kind of theist? Jew, Christian, Muslim, Something else?

I am asking because different religions have different views about morality. For example, in Christianity, it is not exactly clear what morality is. Because Christianity is anti-Pharisee, there is no explicit list of rules that a Christian must follow, contrary to what you have in Judaism or Islam.

Since in order to act perfectly, you have to know everything (like God), Christianity comes close to saying that there is no morality at all. Hence the need to submit to God entirely in order to be forgiven the sins you will inevitably commit because you are not all-knowing.

So it is not obvious there is "objective" morality EVEN IF there is a God.

 

[Deleted member 39864]

If God and his actions are beyond our comprehension then how did you come to the conclusion that he has a reason for everything?

He is icomprehensibly WISER than us. Which implies he has an extreme amount of wisdom, so he isn't like some wild beast in the jungle, which is powerful but does not have wisdom and does random things, but one who has wisdom in his decision making.

well animals have shown to have morality and i am sure they dont have a god either

They don't have knowledge that a God exists because they are lower beings than humans. So whatever 'morality' they have, probably doesn't go beyond basics like a mother taking care of her children. However animals often eat their young, so much for 'morality' there. Plus no thought goes into the moral implications of their actions. It's like a baby swinging its arms and swatting someone across the face, they don't know the moral implications of such an act.

Based on the above, it seems that you are a theist. What kind of theist? Jew, Christian, Muslim, Something else?

I am asking because different religions have different views about morality. For example, in Christianity, it is not exactly clear what morality is. Because Christianity is anti-Pharisee, there is no explicit list of rules that a Christian must follow, contrary to what you have in Judaism or Islam.

Since in order to act perfectly, you have to know everything (like God), Christianity comes close to saying that there is no morality at all. Hence the need to submit to God entirely in order to be forgiven the sins you will inevitably commit because you are not all-knowing.

You're wrong about Christianity, it gives plenty of moral instruction, it simply says humans are in a fallen state and can't be perfect like Jesus.

So it is not obvious there is "objective" morality EVEN IF there is a God.

This doesn't negate my main point at all. I didn't necessarily say if there was a God, there was definitely objective morality, I actually said that objective morality can't exist without a God.

You are using a contraposition here, a common logical fallacy.

 

[K9Otaku]

You're wrong about Christianity, it gives plenty of moral instruction, it simply says humans are in a fallen state and can't be perfect like Jesus.

Hmmm. I do know Christianity quite well. And honestly, I do not think it is completely exact to talk about "moral instruction". For example, it is quite clear that "the Law" (from the OT, including the 10 commandments) is not something that was issued by God for men to follow, but on the contrary was given to show men the impossibility of being righteous, i.e. of being moral.

This doesn't negate my main point at all. I didn't necessarily say if there was a God, there was definitely objective morality, I actually said that objective morality can't exist without a God.

Actually, it sort of confirms your main point. If there is no possibility of being moral even with a God, it seems to me that claiming to be moral without one (like atheists do) is even sillier.

You are using a contraposition here, a common logical fallacy.

I am not arguing against your main point (see above)

Also, you did not answer my first question. Are you a theist, and if so, of what persuasion?

 

[Deleted member 39864]

Hmmm. I do know Christianity quite well. And honestly, I do not think it is completely exact to talk about "moral instruction". For example, it is quite clear that "the Law" (from the OT, including the 10 commandments) is not something that was issued by God for men to follow, but on the contrary was given to show men the impossibility of being righteous, i.e. of being moral.

Do you not know what a commandment is? It's telling you to do something. Therefore telling someone to do something for moral reasons can be called "moral instruction"

Actually, it sort of confirms your main point. If there is no possibility of being moral even with a God, it seems to me that claiming to be moral without one (like atheists do) is even sillier.

"Being moral" implies there is some sort of moral code to follow.

Just because humans are not perfect morally, doesn't mean there isn't a moral code given to use by God. If there is a moral code, then morality exists.

 

[Deleted member 38748]

There's a reason people call atheists pseudointellectuals, and it's because they say stupid stuff like this. They try and say stuff such as morality can be objective, when morality changes vastly over time periods and varies through different cultures. Some will create some system like 'ethics' (which is really just morality, let's be honest), and even then it's flawed because there are many ethical schools of thought.

Another point is, why care about morality as an atheist? After you die you won't be punished for your own sins or wrongdoings. IMO this is a case of wanting to eat your cake and have it too. Atheists want to stroke their egos as being 'good people', but when adversity strikes, they can just abandon their morals and act self serving, and they don't have to worry about any sort of punishment in the afterlife.

The reality is the only way objective morality can exist is if there is a God that exists, one which is incomprehensibly wiser than all of us. Whether you choose to believe in it is your choice, but this idea of objective morality in a godless universe is just a self righteous cope for atheists, often found on reddit but really can be found all over the internet.

@based_meme thoughts?

 

[based_meme]

@based_meme thoughts?

It's a good take, although not 100% accurate.

 

[subhuman]

i am a nihilist

 

[Rice Rice Baby]

There's a reason people call atheists pseudointellectuals, and it's because they say stupid stuff like this. They try and say stuff such as morality can be objective, when morality changes vastly over time periods and varies through different cultures. Some will create some system like 'ethics' (which is really just morality, let's be honest), and even then it's flawed because there are many ethical schools of thought.

Another point is, why care about morality as an atheist? After you die you won't be punished for your own sins or wrongdoings. IMO this is a case of wanting to eat your cake and have it too. Atheists want to stroke their egos as being 'good people', but when adversity strikes, they can just abandon their morals and act self serving, and they don't have to worry about any sort of punishment in the afterlife.

The reality is the only way objective morality can exist is if there is a God that exists, one which is incomprehensibly wiser than all of us. Whether you choose to believe in it is your choice, but this idea of objective morality in a godless universe is just a self righteous cope for atheists, often found on reddit but really can be found all over the internet.

What about social values which present evolutionary advantages? Pretty much all human cultures have adopted some form of restriction on killing human beings from a common social community. Would you call that an objective moral precept?

I'd agree with you that the more complex moral values aren't reducible in the same way. But I think there are a handful of common social values that are objective in the sense that they increase each community member's reproductive fitness. Notwithstanding we're on an incel board.

Inb4 evolution is just a theory.

 

[Deleted member 38748]

It's a good take, although not 100% accurate.

Which part do you personally disagree with OP?

 

[K9Otaku]

Do you not know what a commandment is? It's telling you to do something. Therefore telling someone to do something for moral reasons can be called "moral instruction"

Yes, but Christianity changes the meaning of the 10 commandments. Judaism teaches that they should be followed while Christianity says they are merely there to show us that we are unable to follow them (i.e. unable to be moral). That is why in Christianity, you are not saved "by works" (being moral) but "by faith", i.e. by trusting God will forgive you for being unable to be moral.

"Being moral" implies there is some sort of moral code to follow.

But in Christianity there isn't any code (contrary to Judaism and Islam)

Just because humans are not perfect morally, doesn't mean there isn't a moral code given to use by God. If there is a moral code, then morality exists.

Again, there isn't a moral code in Christianity. The old Torah code (including the 10 commandments) is rejected as "the slavery of the law".

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[12 Years a Rotter]

If God was wise why did he create humans and the universe when he doesn't have a reason to do so? He's not gaining anything from it therefore there's no reason for him to do it, it's unnecessary, and God doing unnecessary things is the total opposite of wisdom.

how is it unwise. god doesn't suffer either by doing so

 

[based_meme]

Which part do you personally disagree with OP?

idk

 

[Deleted member 41551]

Everything I disagree with is

 

[sirwolfgang]

High IQ and based post

 

[RetardedChinlet]

Frankly I've never understood people's obsession with trying to define an objective, supernatural morality. So what if the morality is arbitratily decided by people? There is good in human nature to fulfill that task.

 

[텍스트]

If God existed I would have a girlfriend and I wouldn't be suffering

 

[Deleted member 39864]

Yes, but Christianity changes the meaning of the 10 commandments. Judaism teaches that they should be followed while Christianity says they are merely there to show us that we are unable to follow them (i.e. unable to be moral). That is why in Christianity, you are not saved "by works" (being moral) but "by faith", i.e. by trusting God will forgive you for being unable to be moral.

There is no contradiction here. Saying you should do something, is not contradicting the idea that you are unable to do it. Just because humans are unable to be moral, doesn't mean Jesus said we shouldn't strive to be moral. You seem to think being unable to be moral automatically means there isn't a moral code God gave humans to follow.

Also, Jesus explicitly states in Matthew 5:17-18

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

In Luke 13:3 he says:
Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

Here he is saying there is a moral code to be followed. Just because God can forgive you for being unable to be moral, does not mean that there isn't a moral code.

But in Christianity there isn't any code (contrary to Judaism and Islam)

Wrong, there is, see above the quote from Matt 5:17-18 and Luke 13:3

Again, there isn't a moral code in Christianity. The old Torah code (including the 10 commandments) is rejected as "the slavery of the law".

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

See above, what Jesus said, that he never came to abolish the old law. He also says to repent, and to repent means to turn away from sin, so if you are ordered to turn away from sin, that's a moral code. You are using quotes out of context, to say that there are no rules.

What does Romans chapter 7 mean? | BibleRef.com

What does Romans chapter 7 mean? How should I understand Romans chapter 7? How does Romans chapter 7 fit with the surrounding context?

www.bibleref.com

Paul then describes his devastating experience of wanting to do what is good and finding himself doing what is sinful instead. Bible scholars disagree about whether the picture Paul paints of this experience is describing himself before he was a Christian, when he was trying to follow the law, or whether it was a current experience of trying to do good in his own power as a Christian. Based on the Greek tenses used, Paul seems to be describing the ongoing struggle of a believer against sin, rather than something he "got over" when he was saved (Romans 7:13–23).

The difference between the two positions is significant, but both present biblical truths supported elsewhere in Scripture. Certainly, Paul's whole book stands on the idea that non-Christians are unable to keep the law. That's why the law cannot make us righteous before God. It is also true that Christians who have been freed from the power of sin often still find the powerful influence of sin terribly difficult to overcome. Becoming a Christian gives a person the power to overcome sin (1 Corinthians 10:13; Romans 6:17), but it does not make one sinless (1 John 1:9–10).

 

[K9Otaku]

See above, what Jesus said, that he never came to abolish the old law. He also says to repent, and to repent means to turn away from sin, so if you are ordered to turn away from sin, that's a moral code. You are using quotes out of context, to say that there are no rules.

I am not making this up. It is a well known fact about Christianity. Read Calvin. Read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. Read Augustine. Read every modern theologian as well.

Christianity is anti-rule, anti legalist, anti-Pharisee. If you do not know about it and don't want to become better informed, there is nothing more I can do.

 

[ItsOver4cel]

Nothing more pathetic than being a moralfag, even as a chad
No point in treating well hoomans who won't ever repay the favor well

 

[Deleted member 39864]

I am not making this up. It is a well known fact about Christianity. Read Calvin. Read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. Read Augustine. Read every modern theologian as well.

Christianity is anti-rule, anti legalist, anti-Pharisee. If you do not know about it and don't want to become better informed, there is nothing more I can do.

Christianity is about following Jesus. Not listening to theologians.

Jesus clearly states he did not abolish the old law, but to fulfill it, and that all people should repent. This clearly is instruction.

 

[K9Otaku]

Christianity is about following Jesus. Not listening to theologians.

This is bullshit modern Christianity. You can't "follow Jesus" because he is not there. You need people to help interpret the Bible. Otherwise, you fall into heresy, just like you are doing right now

Jesus clearly states he did not abolish the old law, but to fulfill it, and that all people should repent. This clearly is instruction.

No

He says HE will fulfill it. He is not telling Christians to do it. Repenting does not mean you CAN follow the law. It means you are contrite to not have followed it in the past. And you know you will be unable to do it in the future as well, no matter how hard you try. This is basic Christianity.

 

[Cristo]

 

[Deleted member 39864]

This is bullshit modern Christianity.

Did I strike a nerve with you? Who are you to say this is bullshit modern Christianity? Are you the pope?

Earlier you said "there is nothing more I can do", yet here you are, trying to do more. Nice job on contradicting yourself there pal. I bet you will reply to this message too like a barking dog.

You can't "follow Jesus" because he is not there.

It's metaphorical, as in following his teachings.

You need people to help interpret the Bible. Otherwise, you fall into heresy, just like you are doing right now

Who are you to say this is heresy? Why should anyone have to listen to you? Why shouldn't they listen to Jesus about how he tells people to turn from sin?

No

Yes, actually.

He says HE will fulfill it. He is not telling Christians to do it.

Christians aren't fulfilling the law because that is up to God, and Jesus was God.

Repenting does not mean you CAN follow the law. It means you are contrite to not have followed it in the past. And you know you will be unable to do it in the future as well, no matter how hard you try. This is basic Christianity.

No, repent means to turn away from sin.

This is basic Christianity, not the garbage you are spouting.

 

[Cristo]

Did I strike a nerve with you? Who are you to say this is bullshit modern Christianity? Are you the pope?

Earlier you said "there is nothing more I can do", yet here you are, trying to do more. Nice job on contradicting yourself there pal. I bet you will reply to this message too like a barking dog.

It's metaphorical, as in following his teachings.

Who are you to say this is heresy? Why should anyone have to listen to you? Why shouldn't they listen to Jesus about how he tells people to turn from sin?

Yes, actually.

Christians aren't fulfilling the law because that is up to God, and Jesus was God.

No, repent means to turn away from sin.
View attachment 602863

This is basic Christianity, not the garbage you are spouting.

I hate heretics, man. You can only exist when Daddy God spanks you in the ass. You can only understand guilt, reward and punishment, you anglo-germanic subhuman. Your society never left such an idiotic enterprise and continues to self-dilude in its indulgences and the moral sadism you all eventually develop.
Learn to think, faggot
Jesus left a Church, not a book. His Word is far greater than a mere order can ever be.

 

[K9Otaku]

I hate heretics, man. You can only exist when Daddy God spanks you in the ass. You can only understand guilt, reward and punishment, you anglo-germanic subhuman. Your society never left such an idiotic enterprise and continues to self-dilude in its indulgences and the moral sadism you all eventually develop.
Learn to think, faggot
Jesus left a Church, not a book. His Word is far greater than a mere order can ever be.

Agreed

 

[Deleted member 39864]

I hate heretics, man. You can only exist when Daddy God spanks you in the ass. You can only understand guilt, reward and punishment, you anglo-germanic subhuman. Your society never left such an idiotic enterprise and continues to self-dilude in its indulgences and the moral sadism you all eventually develop.
Learn to think, faggot
Jesus left a Church, not a book. His Word is far greater than a mere order can ever be.

Agreed

That's not even an argument, it's just "muh i hate heretics" and then a bunch of pseudointellectual garbage. And you're telling me how to think?

Also what makes you think I'm anglo-germanic? my avi?

 

[YBP Yxngcel]

God has reasons for everything.

You're asking a mere mortal like myself the reasoning behind God and his actions.

This is why people call atheists pseudointellectucals.

God Is Cope

 

[Deleted member 39864]

God Is Cope

*yawn*

epicurean paradox is trite

read up on "transworld depravity"

here is a brief excerpt

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40380416

 

[METALMILITA88]

God Is Cope

Everything came from nothing=retarted atheists. I’m agnostic btw but you soy atheists are beyond annoying and stupid.

 

[YBP Yxngcel]

Everything came from nothing=retarted atheists. I’m agnostic btw but you soy atheists are beyond annoying and stupid.

I'm agnostic too. I believe they might be a spiritual realm. But the universe might technically come from nothing. Protons and electrons merging together and exploding to create the universe. And then expanding over time. But I don't believe in One God ruling the universe.

 

[agresteking34]

I am getting more and more defensive about abraamic religions when becoming older. You don't need to became a religious fanatic to see the obvious positive side of christianity(and islamism as well), society need their morals and we can't get that shit without religion. I just wish we could live again in their days that foids were putted in their place.

 

[YBP Yxngcel]

I am getting more and more defensive about abraamic religions when becoming older. You don't need to became a religious fanatic to see the obvious positive side of christianity(and islamism as well), society need their morals and we can't get that shit without religion. I just wish we could live again in their days that foids were putted in their place.

Yes religion is very useful