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allah of islam is the great deceiver.

Uggo Mongo

Uggo Mongo

BEEFY CHADCEL MENTALCEL KHHV
★★★★
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Posts
1,805
I'm talking about u buddy, u still are doing it and emberassing urself .. u have become the forum clown.
You're the one known as the spammer though :waitwhat:

You post walls of text but you won't respond to mine. Very cowardly. And since you keep lying you need to debunk this video point by point as well

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8zWoXFjUk


The whole one hour. I bet you won't because you can't, you coward. :D
 
shii410

shii410

Daniel Lord
★★★★★
Joined
Apr 6, 2020
Posts
15,004
Why are you referring to yourself in the third person?

WOW. You really are possessed by demons :giga:

Well I guess that means I win again, you're possessed by demons you can't go with Christ, brah.
:feelskek::feelskek:

Indeed unequivocal proof that he is under demonic influence:feelsthink:
 
fortniteroleplayer

fortniteroleplayer

Banned
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Dec 27, 2022
Posts
1,776
You're the one known as the spammer though :waitwhat:

You post walls of text but you won't respond to mine. Very cowardly. And since you keep lying you need to debunk this video point by point as well

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8zWoXFjUk


The whole one hour. I bet you won't because you can't, you coward. :D

keep typing to me u neurotic wreck LOL go on clown :) keep proving how much i defeated u with 3 verses! now u in troll persona to save face :) l00zer demon
 
fortniteroleplayer

fortniteroleplayer

Banned
-
Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Posts
1,776
You're the one known as the spammer though :waitwhat:

You post walls of text but you won't respond to mine. Very cowardly. And since you keep lying you need to debunk this video point by point as well

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8zWoXFjUk


The whole one hour. I bet you won't because you can't, you coward. :D

I already debunked all this nonsense with 3 verses but furthermore

The following article is a response to a Muslim that issued the following 12 arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity. Before responding, we would first like to define what the historic Christian position of the Trinity is.

[ Remark: Originally I came across this article without indication regarding its author and I responded to it as such. I have now found out, that the source is the book Jesus A Prophet of Islam by Muhammad `Ata ur-Rahim, and this argument is also made online under the title John Biddle's "Twelve Arguments Refuting The Deity of the Holy Spirit" by Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi (MENJ). Therefore we list the following article also within the MENJ rebuttal section. ]

First, the Trinity entails believing in one and only one eternal, invisible, immaterial, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient Creator. Second, the doctrine of the Trinity also entails believing that there are three eternally distinct yet inseparable Persons who do not act independently from the others, but in perfect unity. The three Persons of the Godhead do not function separately and apart from the other members. Rather, they always work in perfect harmony. Hence, historic Trinitarianism does not teach that the three distinct Persons seek out their own personal initiatives since to do so would destroy the perfect and inseparable unity of the Godhead.

Furthermore, by the term "Person" we mean that the three members of the Godhead are conscious agents who are aware of their own personal existence as well as the existence of the others. Because of this, the three Persons are able to have intimate communion and fellowship amongst themselves. By the use of the term "Person" we do not mean to imply that there are three material entities that occupy space or exist within time.

Finally, the historic Christian position on Jesus Christ is that he is one divine eternal Person having two distinct natures and wills. Jesus Christ is the God-man (theanthropos), perfect God and perfect man united in one Person.

With this just stated we now proceed to the 12 arguments:



1) Whoever is distinguished from GOD is not GOD.
Response:


This is faulty logic since it assumes several things. It first assumes that the term "God" has only one referent, namely the Father. Yet, this fails to take into consideration that the term "God" has different referents in different contexts. Cf. John 1:1, 20:28; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 9:5; Hebrews 1:8-9; 1 John 5:20; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

Second, it assumes that only one Person shares the eternal Being of God, i.e. the Father. Hence, anytime Scripture distinguishes between the Father and the Son or the Holy Spirit it is therefore assumed that neither the Son nor the Spirit can be God since the Father alone is God. Yet, this begs the question since the Holy Bible testifies to the absolute Deity of all three Persons.

Third, it assumes that whenever Scripture distinguishes between the persons of the Godhead, this is interpreted to mean a distinction of Being as opposed to Person. Yet, the Scripture is not distinguishing between the nature or Being of the three Persons of the Godhead. Rather, it is distinguishing amongst the three Persons that coexist within the Being of the one true God.



2) He who gave the Holy Spirit to the Israelites is Jehovah alone, therefore Holy Spirit is not Jehovah.
Response:


This again assumes that Jehovah is only one Person so that whenever it speaks of Jehovah sending the Spirit, the Spirit therefore cannot be Jehovah. This again begs the question since it assumes that Jehovah is not a tri-personal Being.

The fact is that the name Jehovah or God can refer to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Here are some examples where the term Jehovah or God is used in reference to the Holy Spirit:



"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God," 2 Samuel 23:2-3
David equates the Spirit speaking with him as God speaking to him.



"Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4
Lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.



"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
The Oxford Study Bible translates this passage in the following manner:



"Now the Lord of whom this passage speaks is the Spirit..."
The Greek word "Lord" is Kurios. This was the term used by the translators of the Septuagint in translating the word Jehovah into the Greek language. Therefore, for Paul to call the Spirit Lord is equivalent to claiming that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God!

Interestingly, the Jehovah Witnesses' official Bible translation, the New World Translation understands the Greek word Kurios to mean Jehovah:



Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is there is freedom. And all of us, while we reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit. NWT
Hence, even a non-Trinitarian cult realizes that to say that the Spirit is Lord means that the Spirit is actually Jehovah God!

In light of the preceding factors the passage clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the Lord/Jehovah. Yet, at the same time the Spirit is seen as a distinct Person from the Lord (i.e. "the Spirit of the Lord"). This passage therefore affirms both the deity of the Holy Spirit as well as the multi-personal nature of God.

Other passages where Jehovah is used in reference to more than one person includes:



Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens. Genesis 19:24
Jehovah is said to bring fire down from another who is said to be Jehovah in heaven. Hence, we find two distinct Persons identified as the one true God Jehovah.



Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call her Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them. Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them - not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God." Hosea 1:6-7
Jehovah speaking to Hosea claims that he will save the house of Judah by Jehovah their God, clearly distinguishing between two Persons as the one true God.



The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he grasped his brother's heel; as a man he struggled with GOD. He struggled with THE ANGEL and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there - the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name of renown! Hosea 12:2-5
The God with whom Jacob struggled was actually the Angel of Jehovah. This passage is therefore identifying the Angel as Jehovah God.



For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you - for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye - I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me. Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you." Zechariah 2:8-11
Jehovah states that he is coming to dwell in Jerusalem and that the people will then know that it is Jehovah who sent him.



Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1-2
The Angel who is said to be Jehovah rebukes Satan by Jehovah. Again, we have two distinct Persons identified as the one true God Jehovah.

These passages should put to rest the notion that Jehovah is uni-personal as opposed to being multi-personal.



3) Whoever does not speak of his own accord is not God (Holy Spirit and "Jesus" did not speak of their own accord.)
Response:


First, this again assumes that God is a singularity within unity, one Person and one Being.

Second, this assumes that in order for Trinitarianism to be true the three Persons must speak or act on their own initiative. This shows a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity since the three Persons do nothing independently, but in perfect unity and agreement. Hence, statements like the above only reinforce the belief that this one God exists as three Persons who work in perfect accord.

In fact, Jesus in John 5 makes precisely the same point:



Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 5:19-29
This passage clearly shows that Christ and the Father are the one God since Christ does the works that God alone can do. It also demonstrates that the distinct Persons of the Godhead work in perfect unity and harmony, never independently.



4) Whoever is taught is not God, or, is told what to say by another ("Jesus" speaks what he is told John 8:26)
Response:


Being told what to say or taught implies personal distinctions, that the Father and Son are distinct Persons. This is precisely what the Trinity teaches. Since they are distinct Persons they can communicate and have fellowship amongst themselves. This communication and fellowship is eternal since all three Persons have coexisted together from eternity as the One God. Cf. John 1:1-3; 8:23-24, 56-59; 17:5; Hebrews 9:14

Secondly, we must notice when this teaching between the Father and Son actually takes place:



So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. John 8:28
Notice that in this passage Christ affirms both his Deity (the use of the Divine name of God "I AM") and the perfect unity between the members of the Godhead, i.e. "and that I do nothing on my own."



"Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him AND KEEP HIS WORD. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. John 8:55-59
Jesus again points to his perfect Deity and Divine preexistence as well as the perfect unity of the Godhead.



And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." John 12:44-50 NASB
Once again Jesus emphasizes both his Deity and the perfect inseparable unity that exists amongst the three members of the Godhead. These passages also refer to Christ's earthly ministry where he assumed the role of a servant. Therefore, Jesus is using terminology suitable in highlighting his role as the Father's servant who perfectly obeys his master's instructions.

Far from disproving our position, these passages serve to reinforce the historic Christian understanding of the Trinity.



5) He that receives from another is not God (John 16:14)
Response:


This again assumes Unitarianism, namely that there is only one Person who is God.

Secondly, these passages demonstrate that the one who receives and the one who gives are DISTINCT PERSONS, which again is precisely what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. The context of this specific passage demonstrates the distinction of Persons within the Godhead - Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father. Since Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is the same PERSON as the Father or that the Father is the Holy Spirit we really do not see how this passage supposedly refutes our position.



6) He that is sent by another is not God (e.g. both "Jesus" and the Holy Spirit are SENT by God)
Response:


This again demonstrates faulty logic. This argument actually establishes the Trinitarian view, namely that one who is sent cannot be THE SAME PERSON AS THE ONE WHO SENT HIM. Therefore, this is a straw man argument since it either misrepresents or misunderstands what the actual doctrine of the Trinity teaches.



7) Whoever is not the giver of all things is not God. Whoever is a gift of God is not the giver of ALL things. Whoever is a gift of God is himself given, the gift is within the power of giver. God can never be within the power of another (Acts 17:25)
Response:


Let us first quote the context of Acts 17:



"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:24-26
The passage speaks of God's role as Creator and Sustainer, that God creates and provides for all mankind. Let us see if whether the God that made and sustains creation is uni-personal or tri-personal:

Jehovah is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



He ALONE stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. Job 9:8-9
This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by MYSELF, Isaiah 44:24

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." Acts 14:14-17

The Son is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1-3, 10, 14
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For BY HIM all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM. He is before all things, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Colossians 1:15-18

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, AND THROUGH WHOM HE MADE THE UNIVERSE. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, SUSTAINING ALL THINGS BY HIS POWERFUL WORD. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven... But about the Son he says... "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." Hebrews 1:1-3, 8a, 10-12

Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. Hebrews 3:3-4

Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made. Revelation 3:14 Worldwide English Translation NT only (WE)

The Holy Spirit is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:1-2
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. Psalm 104:30

The fortress will be abandoned, the noisy city deserted; citadel and watchtower will become a wasteland forever, the delight of donkeys, a pasture for flocks, till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest. Isaiah 32:14-15

Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation. Isaiah 34:16-17

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:11

God is said to be the Giver of gifts:



And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:28-31
The Son is said to be the Giver of gifts:



But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. Luke 21:14-15
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was HE who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:7-13

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ - to the glory and praise of God. Philippians 1:9-11

The Holy Spirit is said to be the Giver of Gifts:



Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
All three Persons together are said to be the Giver of Gifts:



There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6
The Holy Bible also states that the Father and Son share all things in common, with the Holy Spirit apportioning the things of God to believers:



"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matthew 11:27
He then began to speak to them in parables: "A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But the tenants said to one another, 'THIS IS THE HEIR. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard." Mark 12:1-8

Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; John 13:3

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." John 16:13-15

"All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them." John 17:10

However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-11

"... but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, WHOM HE APPOINTED HEIR OF ALL THINGS, and through whom he made the universe." Hebrews 1:2

Hopefully, this should sufficiently answer the allegation.



8) Whoever changes place is not God. The Holy Spirit changes places therefore he is not God (if God were to change places then he would cease to be where he was before and begin to be where he was not before - which would be a contradiction of his attribute of being omnipresent, and therefore of his deity. Therefore it could not have been God who came to "Jesus", but an angel who appeared as a person in the name of God)
Response:


This commits the fallacy of false dilemma as well as the fallacy of equivocation. It assumes that God must be immobile in order to be immutable. God is immutable in relation to his nature and being, yet God is not immobile since God is able to manifest his presence locally without this nullifying his omnipresence.

Hence, the Holy Spirit changing places refer to a localized manifestation of God's presence through his Spirit. The Holy Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is present everywhere and can dwell and fill groups of individuals while also appearing at specific points at the same time. Cf. Psalm 139:7-12; John 14:16-17, 26; Acts 2:1-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19. If this is not omnipresence I don't know what is!

Second, this argument cuts both ways. The Quran teaches that Allah actually changes places and moves:



Nay! When the earth is pounded by power, AND THY LORD COMETH, and His angels, rank upon rank, and Hell, that Day, is brought face to face - On that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance profit him? S. 89:21-23
"He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six days; then He mounted the throne." S. 57:4 - M. M. Pickthall English Translation

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, comes every night down on the nearest Heaven to us when the last third of the night remains, saying: "Is there anyone to invoke Me, so that I may respond to invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me, so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone seeking My forgiveness, so that I may forgive him?" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Number 246)

The following hadith is taken from Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah - Divine Narratives translated by Dr. Abdul Khaliq Kazi & Dr. Alan B. Day, published by Dar Al Kitab Arabi - USA, 1995:



Hadith 134:
Jabir b. Abdullah narrated that the Prophet said: Whilst the people of Paradise were enjoying their blissful state, a light will appear above them. They will raise their heads and lo! The Lord has risen above them and would say: Peace be upon you, O people of Paradise! That would be in accordance with the Qur'anic verse "Peace! A word from the Merciful Lord" (Qur'an: 36:58). The Prophet said: Then Allah would look at them and the people will look at Him, and they will not be distracted by the joys of Paradise as long as they were looking at Him, until Allah became veiled from them. His Light and Blessing over them will remain in their dwellings. [Ibn Majah] (p. 191)

Therefore, using the above logic we are forced to conclude that Allah is not God since he moves from place to place.

Finally, seeing that omnipresence is used as proof for Deity this serves to establish the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ since he is also omnipresent. Cf. Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 14:21, 23; Ephesians 1:22-23; 4:7-10; Colossians 3:11



9) Whoever prays to "Jesus" to come to judgement is not God. The Holy Spirit does this so he is not God
Response:


This again entails circular reasoning since it assumes what is yet to be proven, namely that God is uni-personal. The objector then proceeds to read this unproven assumption into the text. It is therefore not surprising that the objector ends up concluding that the Holy Spirit cannot be God since he is seen praying to the Father. This is a classic case of eisegesis, allowing one's presuppositions to determine the meaning of the text as opposed to allowing the text to determine one's belief.

In actuality, the Trinity teaches that the three Persons are distinct which allows for communion and dialogue amongst themselves.

Furthermore, this argument cuts both ways and ends up proving that Allah cannot be God. The Quran claims that Allah actually prays:



He it is who sends prayers on you (Arabic- yusallii alaykum), as do His angels... Sura 33:43
Allah and His angels pray for the Prophet (Arabic- yasalluuna alan-Nabiyy): O ye that believe pray for him (salluu 'alayhi), and salute him with all respect. Sura 33:56

Since a Being that is a singularity-within-unity cannot pray (since if he did who would he be addressing when praying?), many translations obscure the meaning of the Arabic by inserting the word "blessing" as opposed to saying "pray". Yet the term for blessing is derived from "baraka" which does not appear in the above citations.

In fact, Sura 33:56 is interpreted by the Muslim scholar Al-Najjary as:



The prayers of Allah are His praises for Muhammad among the angels, and the prayers of the angels are their prayers for Muhammad, and the [angels] praying is their blessings. The prayers of Allah are mercy, and the prayers of the angels is to ask forgiveness [for Muhammad].
Ibn 'Abbas says:



"The tribe of Israel said to Moses: ‘Does your God pray?’ God called upon him and said: ‘Yes, I do pray, and my angels [pray] upon my prophets’, and Allah then sent down this verse: ‘Allah and His angels pray ...’" [quoted by Ibn Katheer on Surat Al-Ahzaab 33:56]
In fact, the very word salli is used elswhere in relation to Muhammad praying for others:



Take alms of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow, and pray for them (wa salli alayhim). Lo! thy prayer (salataka) is an assuagement for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower. S. 9:103 Pickthall
Perhaps the objector can explain this for us.



10) He who is told by God through an intermediary what he is to say i.e. "Jesus" has an understanding distinct from God therefore "Jesus" is not God.
Response:


Again, this assumes that the Being of God only encompasses one Person as opposed to encompassing the three Persons. Furthermore, the Holy Bible uses the term God in different contexts to refer to different things and persons. See above for references. All this statement proves is that the Father and Son are distinct Persons not distinct Beings. Their Persons are distinct, yet their Being is the same.

Finally, this fails to take into consideration that Jesus is God as well as man. Therefore, Christ had and continues to have both a divine and human consciousness. In his divine consciousness, he is all-knowing and immutable. Cf. Luke 10:22; John 1:45-49; 2:23-25; 16:30-31; 21:17; 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; 4:4-5; Colossians 2:2-3; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8; Revelation 2:23; Jeremiah 17:10

Yet, as man his knowledge was finite and mutable; Mark 13:32; Luke 2:40, 52



11) Whoever hears from God and what he i.e. "Jesus" is to say is taught by God. The Holy Spirit does so.
Response:


We have answered this already. See our response to # 4.



12) Whoever has a will distinct from God is not God the holy spirit has a will which is distinct from the will of God (Romans 8:26-27) and whoever follows the will of God i.e. "Jesus" is NOT God (BECAUSE THEY ARE INSEPERABLE! (according to you and Athanasius)
Response:


Correction. That the three Persons all have will demonstrates that they are PERSONS, not mere abstract forces. Therefore, this argument only proves that the Holy Spirit is a Person and not just a force since he is said to have a will.

Furthermore, the term "will" does not appear in Romans 8:26-27. Rather, we find the term used in 1 Corinthians 12:



Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
This passage affirms that the Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity. This is due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is able to empower and equip all Christian believers with the gifts of God. The only way for the Spirit to be able to do so is if he is all-powerful, all knowing and ever present. Furthermore, this passage also demonstrates the Holy Spirit's sovereignty since he gives gifts to whomever he is pleased to give it to. In other words, the Holy Spirit is free to do as he wills with any believer as the Spirit sees fit. Therefore, this proves that the Holy Spirit is the Sovereign Lord of all creation.

Finally, that Christ seeks to fulfill the Father's will and not his own affirms a) that the Father and Son are distinct Persons, b) that the Father and Son are not mere abstract forces but intelligent and conscious agents and c) that the Son is in perfect union with the Father and therefore seeks to fulfill the latter’s will.

This ends our rebuttal. We pray that the God and Father of our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ grant all who read this paper the grace of his Holy Spirit to believe in him. Jesus is Lord forever!
 
tulasdanslos

tulasdanslos

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Mods wtf is up with this christcuck still being here?
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Uggo Mongo

Uggo Mongo

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keep typing to me u neurotic wreck LOL go on clown :) keep proving how much i defeated u with 3 verses! now u in troll persona to save face :) l00zer demon
You've been steaming for days?

Must be the demons. The whole forum is in agreement that you are possessed by demons. We conducted a poll in the secret forum which you're not allowed to view because you're too low rank and it was 94-3 that you are possessed by demons. The 3 no votes were Satan worshipers.

So yeah, it's pretty much 100% true that you are possessed by demons. Therefore I win, because I love Jesus and I'm not possessed by demons, but you can't go with Christ because you're dark-sided and satanic.
 
Uggo Mongo

Uggo Mongo

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I already debunked all this nonsense with 3 verses but furthermore

The following article is a response to a Muslim that issued the following 12 arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity. Before responding, we would first like to define what the historic Christian position of the Trinity is.

[ Remark: Originally I came across this article without indication regarding its author and I responded to it as such. I have now found out, that the source is the book Jesus A Prophet of Islam by Muhammad `Ata ur-Rahim, and this argument is also made online under the title John Biddle's "Twelve Arguments Refuting The Deity of the Holy Spirit" by Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi (MENJ). Therefore we list the following article also within the MENJ rebuttal section. ]

First, the Trinity entails believing in one and only one eternal, invisible, immaterial, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient Creator. Second, the doctrine of the Trinity also entails believing that there are three eternally distinct yet inseparable Persons who do not act independently from the others, but in perfect unity. The three Persons of the Godhead do not function separately and apart from the other members. Rather, they always work in perfect harmony. Hence, historic Trinitarianism does not teach that the three distinct Persons seek out their own personal initiatives since to do so would destroy the perfect and inseparable unity of the Godhead.

Furthermore, by the term "Person" we mean that the three members of the Godhead are conscious agents who are aware of their own personal existence as well as the existence of the others. Because of this, the three Persons are able to have intimate communion and fellowship amongst themselves. By the use of the term "Person" we do not mean to imply that there are three material entities that occupy space or exist within time.

Finally, the historic Christian position on Jesus Christ is that he is one divine eternal Person having two distinct natures and wills. Jesus Christ is the God-man (theanthropos), perfect God and perfect man united in one Person.

With this just stated we now proceed to the 12 arguments:



1) Whoever is distinguished from GOD is not GOD.
Response:


This is faulty logic since it assumes several things. It first assumes that the term "God" has only one referent, namely the Father. Yet, this fails to take into consideration that the term "God" has different referents in different contexts. Cf. John 1:1, 20:28; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 9:5; Hebrews 1:8-9; 1 John 5:20; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

Second, it assumes that only one Person shares the eternal Being of God, i.e. the Father. Hence, anytime Scripture distinguishes between the Father and the Son or the Holy Spirit it is therefore assumed that neither the Son nor the Spirit can be God since the Father alone is God. Yet, this begs the question since the Holy Bible testifies to the absolute Deity of all three Persons.

Third, it assumes that whenever Scripture distinguishes between the persons of the Godhead, this is interpreted to mean a distinction of Being as opposed to Person. Yet, the Scripture is not distinguishing between the nature or Being of the three Persons of the Godhead. Rather, it is distinguishing amongst the three Persons that coexist within the Being of the one true God.



2) He who gave the Holy Spirit to the Israelites is Jehovah alone, therefore Holy Spirit is not Jehovah.
Response:


This again assumes that Jehovah is only one Person so that whenever it speaks of Jehovah sending the Spirit, the Spirit therefore cannot be Jehovah. This again begs the question since it assumes that Jehovah is not a tri-personal Being.

The fact is that the name Jehovah or God can refer to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Here are some examples where the term Jehovah or God is used in reference to the Holy Spirit:



"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God," 2 Samuel 23:2-3
David equates the Spirit speaking with him as God speaking to him.



"Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4
Lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.



"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
The Oxford Study Bible translates this passage in the following manner:



"Now the Lord of whom this passage speaks is the Spirit..."
The Greek word "Lord" is Kurios. This was the term used by the translators of the Septuagint in translating the word Jehovah into the Greek language. Therefore, for Paul to call the Spirit Lord is equivalent to claiming that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God!

Interestingly, the Jehovah Witnesses' official Bible translation, the New World Translation understands the Greek word Kurios to mean Jehovah:



Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is there is freedom. And all of us, while we reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit. NWT
Hence, even a non-Trinitarian cult realizes that to say that the Spirit is Lord means that the Spirit is actually Jehovah God!

In light of the preceding factors the passage clearly states that the Holy Spirit is the Lord/Jehovah. Yet, at the same time the Spirit is seen as a distinct Person from the Lord (i.e. "the Spirit of the Lord"). This passage therefore affirms both the deity of the Holy Spirit as well as the multi-personal nature of God.

Other passages where Jehovah is used in reference to more than one person includes:



Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens. Genesis 19:24
Jehovah is said to bring fire down from another who is said to be Jehovah in heaven. Hence, we find two distinct Persons identified as the one true God Jehovah.



Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call her Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them. Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them - not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God." Hosea 1:6-7
Jehovah speaking to Hosea claims that he will save the house of Judah by Jehovah their God, clearly distinguishing between two Persons as the one true God.



The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds. In the womb he grasped his brother's heel; as a man he struggled with GOD. He struggled with THE ANGEL and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there - the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name of renown! Hosea 12:2-5
The God with whom Jacob struggled was actually the Angel of Jehovah. This passage is therefore identifying the Angel as Jehovah God.



For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you - for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye - I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me. Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you." Zechariah 2:8-11
Jehovah states that he is coming to dwell in Jerusalem and that the people will then know that it is Jehovah who sent him.



Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1-2
The Angel who is said to be Jehovah rebukes Satan by Jehovah. Again, we have two distinct Persons identified as the one true God Jehovah.

These passages should put to rest the notion that Jehovah is uni-personal as opposed to being multi-personal.



3) Whoever does not speak of his own accord is not God (Holy Spirit and "Jesus" did not speak of their own accord.)
Response:


First, this again assumes that God is a singularity within unity, one Person and one Being.

Second, this assumes that in order for Trinitarianism to be true the three Persons must speak or act on their own initiative. This shows a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity since the three Persons do nothing independently, but in perfect unity and agreement. Hence, statements like the above only reinforce the belief that this one God exists as three Persons who work in perfect accord.

In fact, Jesus in John 5 makes precisely the same point:



Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 5:19-29
This passage clearly shows that Christ and the Father are the one God since Christ does the works that God alone can do. It also demonstrates that the distinct Persons of the Godhead work in perfect unity and harmony, never independently.



4) Whoever is taught is not God, or, is told what to say by another ("Jesus" speaks what he is told John 8:26)
Response:


Being told what to say or taught implies personal distinctions, that the Father and Son are distinct Persons. This is precisely what the Trinity teaches. Since they are distinct Persons they can communicate and have fellowship amongst themselves. This communication and fellowship is eternal since all three Persons have coexisted together from eternity as the One God. Cf. John 1:1-3; 8:23-24, 56-59; 17:5; Hebrews 9:14

Secondly, we must notice when this teaching between the Father and Son actually takes place:



So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. John 8:28
Notice that in this passage Christ affirms both his Deity (the use of the Divine name of God "I AM") and the perfect unity between the members of the Godhead, i.e. "and that I do nothing on my own."



"Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him AND KEEP HIS WORD. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. John 8:55-59
Jesus again points to his perfect Deity and Divine preexistence as well as the perfect unity of the Godhead.



And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." John 12:44-50 NASB
Once again Jesus emphasizes both his Deity and the perfect inseparable unity that exists amongst the three members of the Godhead. These passages also refer to Christ's earthly ministry where he assumed the role of a servant. Therefore, Jesus is using terminology suitable in highlighting his role as the Father's servant who perfectly obeys his master's instructions.

Far from disproving our position, these passages serve to reinforce the historic Christian understanding of the Trinity.



5) He that receives from another is not God (John 16:14)
Response:


This again assumes Unitarianism, namely that there is only one Person who is God.

Secondly, these passages demonstrate that the one who receives and the one who gives are DISTINCT PERSONS, which again is precisely what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. The context of this specific passage demonstrates the distinction of Persons within the Godhead - Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father. Since Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is the same PERSON as the Father or that the Father is the Holy Spirit we really do not see how this passage supposedly refutes our position.



6) He that is sent by another is not God (e.g. both "Jesus" and the Holy Spirit are SENT by God)
Response:


This again demonstrates faulty logic. This argument actually establishes the Trinitarian view, namely that one who is sent cannot be THE SAME PERSON AS THE ONE WHO SENT HIM. Therefore, this is a straw man argument since it either misrepresents or misunderstands what the actual doctrine of the Trinity teaches.



7) Whoever is not the giver of all things is not God. Whoever is a gift of God is not the giver of ALL things. Whoever is a gift of God is himself given, the gift is within the power of giver. God can never be within the power of another (Acts 17:25)
Response:


Let us first quote the context of Acts 17:



"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:24-26
The passage speaks of God's role as Creator and Sustainer, that God creates and provides for all mankind. Let us see if whether the God that made and sustains creation is uni-personal or tri-personal:

Jehovah is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



He ALONE stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south. Job 9:8-9
This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by MYSELF, Isaiah 44:24

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." Acts 14:14-17

The Son is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1-3, 10, 14
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For BY HIM all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM. He is before all things, AND IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Colossians 1:15-18

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, AND THROUGH WHOM HE MADE THE UNIVERSE. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, SUSTAINING ALL THINGS BY HIS POWERFUL WORD. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven... But about the Son he says... "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." Hebrews 1:1-3, 8a, 10-12

Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. Hebrews 3:3-4

Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made. Revelation 3:14 Worldwide English Translation NT only (WE)

The Holy Spirit is said to be the Creator and Sustainer of all things:



In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:1-2
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. Psalm 104:30

The fortress will be abandoned, the noisy city deserted; citadel and watchtower will become a wasteland forever, the delight of donkeys, a pasture for flocks, till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest. Isaiah 32:14-15

Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation. Isaiah 34:16-17

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:11

God is said to be the Giver of gifts:



And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:28-31
The Son is said to be the Giver of gifts:



But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. Luke 21:14-15
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was HE who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:7-13

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ - to the glory and praise of God. Philippians 1:9-11

The Holy Spirit is said to be the Giver of Gifts:



Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
All three Persons together are said to be the Giver of Gifts:



There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 1 Corinthians 12:4-6
The Holy Bible also states that the Father and Son share all things in common, with the Holy Spirit apportioning the things of God to believers:



"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matthew 11:27
He then began to speak to them in parables: "A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But the tenants said to one another, 'THIS IS THE HEIR. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard." Mark 12:1-8

Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; John 13:3

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." John 16:13-15

"All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them." John 17:10

However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:9-11

"... but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, WHOM HE APPOINTED HEIR OF ALL THINGS, and through whom he made the universe." Hebrews 1:2

Hopefully, this should sufficiently answer the allegation.



8) Whoever changes place is not God. The Holy Spirit changes places therefore he is not God (if God were to change places then he would cease to be where he was before and begin to be where he was not before - which would be a contradiction of his attribute of being omnipresent, and therefore of his deity. Therefore it could not have been God who came to "Jesus", but an angel who appeared as a person in the name of God)
Response:


This commits the fallacy of false dilemma as well as the fallacy of equivocation. It assumes that God must be immobile in order to be immutable. God is immutable in relation to his nature and being, yet God is not immobile since God is able to manifest his presence locally without this nullifying his omnipresence.

Hence, the Holy Spirit changing places refer to a localized manifestation of God's presence through his Spirit. The Holy Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is present everywhere and can dwell and fill groups of individuals while also appearing at specific points at the same time. Cf. Psalm 139:7-12; John 14:16-17, 26; Acts 2:1-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19. If this is not omnipresence I don't know what is!

Second, this argument cuts both ways. The Quran teaches that Allah actually changes places and moves:



Nay! When the earth is pounded by power, AND THY LORD COMETH, and His angels, rank upon rank, and Hell, that Day, is brought face to face - On that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance profit him? S. 89:21-23
"He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six days; then He mounted the throne." S. 57:4 - M. M. Pickthall English Translation

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, comes every night down on the nearest Heaven to us when the last third of the night remains, saying: "Is there anyone to invoke Me, so that I may respond to invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me, so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone seeking My forgiveness, so that I may forgive him?" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Number 246)

The following hadith is taken from Al-Ahadith Al-Qudsiyyah - Divine Narratives translated by Dr. Abdul Khaliq Kazi & Dr. Alan B. Day, published by Dar Al Kitab Arabi - USA, 1995:



Hadith 134:
Jabir b. Abdullah narrated that the Prophet said: Whilst the people of Paradise were enjoying their blissful state, a light will appear above them. They will raise their heads and lo! The Lord has risen above them and would say: Peace be upon you, O people of Paradise! That would be in accordance with the Qur'anic verse "Peace! A word from the Merciful Lord" (Qur'an: 36:58). The Prophet said: Then Allah would look at them and the people will look at Him, and they will not be distracted by the joys of Paradise as long as they were looking at Him, until Allah became veiled from them. His Light and Blessing over them will remain in their dwellings. [Ibn Majah] (p. 191)

Therefore, using the above logic we are forced to conclude that Allah is not God since he moves from place to place.

Finally, seeing that omnipresence is used as proof for Deity this serves to establish the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ since he is also omnipresent. Cf. Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 14:21, 23; Ephesians 1:22-23; 4:7-10; Colossians 3:11



9) Whoever prays to "Jesus" to come to judgement is not God. The Holy Spirit does this so he is not God
Response:


This again entails circular reasoning since it assumes what is yet to be proven, namely that God is uni-personal. The objector then proceeds to read this unproven assumption into the text. It is therefore not surprising that the objector ends up concluding that the Holy Spirit cannot be God since he is seen praying to the Father. This is a classic case of eisegesis, allowing one's presuppositions to determine the meaning of the text as opposed to allowing the text to determine one's belief.

In actuality, the Trinity teaches that the three Persons are distinct which allows for communion and dialogue amongst themselves.

Furthermore, this argument cuts both ways and ends up proving that Allah cannot be God. The Quran claims that Allah actually prays:



He it is who sends prayers on you (Arabic- yusallii alaykum), as do His angels... Sura 33:43
Allah and His angels pray for the Prophet (Arabic- yasalluuna alan-Nabiyy): O ye that believe pray for him (salluu 'alayhi), and salute him with all respect. Sura 33:56

Since a Being that is a singularity-within-unity cannot pray (since if he did who would he be addressing when praying?), many translations obscure the meaning of the Arabic by inserting the word "blessing" as opposed to saying "pray". Yet the term for blessing is derived from "baraka" which does not appear in the above citations.

In fact, Sura 33:56 is interpreted by the Muslim scholar Al-Najjary as:



The prayers of Allah are His praises for Muhammad among the angels, and the prayers of the angels are their prayers for Muhammad, and the [angels] praying is their blessings. The prayers of Allah are mercy, and the prayers of the angels is to ask forgiveness [for Muhammad].
Ibn 'Abbas says:



"The tribe of Israel said to Moses: ‘Does your God pray?’ God called upon him and said: ‘Yes, I do pray, and my angels [pray] upon my prophets’, and Allah then sent down this verse: ‘Allah and His angels pray ...’" [quoted by Ibn Katheer on Surat Al-Ahzaab 33:56]
In fact, the very word salli is used elswhere in relation to Muhammad praying for others:



Take alms of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow, and pray for them (wa salli alayhim). Lo! thy prayer (salataka) is an assuagement for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower. S. 9:103 Pickthall
Perhaps the objector can explain this for us.



10) He who is told by God through an intermediary what he is to say i.e. "Jesus" has an understanding distinct from God therefore "Jesus" is not God.
Response:


Again, this assumes that the Being of God only encompasses one Person as opposed to encompassing the three Persons. Furthermore, the Holy Bible uses the term God in different contexts to refer to different things and persons. See above for references. All this statement proves is that the Father and Son are distinct Persons not distinct Beings. Their Persons are distinct, yet their Being is the same.

Finally, this fails to take into consideration that Jesus is God as well as man. Therefore, Christ had and continues to have both a divine and human consciousness. In his divine consciousness, he is all-knowing and immutable. Cf. Luke 10:22; John 1:45-49; 2:23-25; 16:30-31; 21:17; 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; 4:4-5; Colossians 2:2-3; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8; Revelation 2:23; Jeremiah 17:10

Yet, as man his knowledge was finite and mutable; Mark 13:32; Luke 2:40, 52



11) Whoever hears from God and what he i.e. "Jesus" is to say is taught by God. The Holy Spirit does so.
Response:


We have answered this already. See our response to # 4.



12) Whoever has a will distinct from God is not God the holy spirit has a will which is distinct from the will of God (Romans 8:26-27) and whoever follows the will of God i.e. "Jesus" is NOT God (BECAUSE THEY ARE INSEPERABLE! (according to you and Athanasius)
Response:


Correction. That the three Persons all have will demonstrates that they are PERSONS, not mere abstract forces. Therefore, this argument only proves that the Holy Spirit is a Person and not just a force since he is said to have a will.

Furthermore, the term "will" does not appear in Romans 8:26-27. Rather, we find the term used in 1 Corinthians 12:



Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
This passage affirms that the Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity. This is due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is able to empower and equip all Christian believers with the gifts of God. The only way for the Spirit to be able to do so is if he is all-powerful, all knowing and ever present. Furthermore, this passage also demonstrates the Holy Spirit's sovereignty since he gives gifts to whomever he is pleased to give it to. In other words, the Holy Spirit is free to do as he wills with any believer as the Spirit sees fit. Therefore, this proves that the Holy Spirit is the Sovereign Lord of all creation.

Finally, that Christ seeks to fulfill the Father's will and not his own affirms a) that the Father and Son are distinct Persons, b) that the Father and Son are not mere abstract forces but intelligent and conscious agents and c) that the Son is in perfect union with the Father and therefore seeks to fulfill the latter’s will.

This ends our rebuttal. We pray that the God and Father of our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ grant all who read this paper the grace of his Holy Spirit to believe in him. Jesus is Lord forever!
Big fail, you didn't debunk the video point by point. You copy pasted an irrelevant article that is inferior to the articles I myself copy pasted. I knew you wouldn't be able to debunk even one video point by point with time stamps, let alone 3. Victory is mine.
 
mosss

mosss

I reject demiurges phony creation
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Allah is demiurge just like YHWEH is. True God monad hadnt even ever intervened in this retarded pseudo reality because when I will die this reality will perish too. Its fake af demiurge wont get me tricked
 
ethniccel1

ethniccel1

Sir ethnic cel the 1st lord of landwhales, grannys
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Many people do not realize that the Quran not only describes Allah as the best of all deceivers, but it also depicts him as a misleader who causes people to be deceived and misled from the path of salvation.

Many are also unaware of the fact that two of the 99 names of Allah happen to Al-Hadi (“the guide”), i.e. the one who guides, and al-Mudill (“the misguider/misleader”), e.g. the one who misleads and causes to go astray.

The Muslim scripture contains passage after passage stating that it is Allah who makes people go astray, since he is free to mislead and disgrace whomever he so desires:

Say (O Muhammad): "O Allah! Possessor of the kingdom, You give the kingdom to whom You will, and You take the kingdom from whom You will, and You endue with honour whom You will, and You humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is the good. Verily, You are Able to do all things.” S. 3:26 Hilali-Khan
Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah HAS MADE to go astray? And he whom Allah HAS MADE to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). S. 4:88 Hilali-Khan
And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. S. 14:4 Hilali-Khan
And he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom He sends astray for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors, etc.), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces blind, dumb and deaf, their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire. S. 17:97 Hilali-Khan
“… Thus Allah leads astray WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.” S. 74:31 Hilali-Khan
The Quran further says that there is no guide for the one whom Allah has misled:

A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him. Thus Allah deceiveth him who is a prodigal, a doubter. S. 40:33-34 Pickthall
It is ironic that Allah is described as doing the very thing which Satan is said to do, namely, mislead people from the path!

Hast thou not regarded those who assert that they believe in what has been sent down to thee, and what was sent down before thee, desiring to take their disputes to idols, yet they have been commanded to disbelieve in them? But Satan desires to lead them astray into far error. S. 4:60 Arberry
And he entered the city at a time of unawareness of its people, and he found there two men fighting, - one of his party (his religion - from the Children of Israel), and the other of his foes. The man of his (own) party asked him for help against his foe, so Musa (Moses) struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: "This is of Shaitan's (Satan) doing, verily, he is a plain misleading enemy (mudillun mubeenun)." S. 28:15 Hilali-Khan
Now, it makes sense for Satan to want to deceive and mislead people from God’s path since his purpose is to see them destroyed. But why would Allah want to do so if he is truly an omni-benevolent being who desires the good for all his creation?

A Muslim may interject that Allah only misleads the evildoers who refuse to believe and repent. The problem with this argument is that the Quran makes it absolutely clear that no person is capable of desiring to believe and repent unless Allah has granted it to him. The Muslim scripture is emphatic that Allah has to will for a person to believe and repent in order for that individual to be able to do so.

However, it is quite evident from the Quran itself that it isn’t Allah’s will to guide everyone, since it is his desire to mislead some of his creatures in order to destroy them:

“Whosoever wishes will take heed. None will take heed except if God wills. He is the source of righteousness and the source of forgiveness.” S. 74:55-56 Quran: Reformist Translation (QRT)
“This is a reminder, so let whoever wills take a path to his Lord. You cannot will, except if God wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise. He admits whoever/whomever He wills to His mercy. As for the wicked, He has prepared for them a painful retribution.” S. 76:29-31 QRT
“If We had sent down to them the angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not acknowledge except if God wills. But most of them are ignorant.” S. 6:111 QRT
And had Allah willed, He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sends astray WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you used to do. S. 16:93 Hilali-Khan
In fact, a person can’t even apostatize, or turn away from Islam, unless Allah has willed that s/he should do so:

The chiefs of those who were arrogant among his people said: "We shall certainly drive you out, O Shuaib, and those who have believed with you from our town, or else you (all) shall return to our religion." He said: "Even though we hate it! "We should have invented a lie against Allah if we returned to your religion, after Allah has rescued us from it. And it is not for us to return to it UNLESS Allah, our Lord, SHOULD WILL. Our Lord comprehends all things in His Knowledge. In Allah (Alone) we put our trust. Our Lord! Judge between us and our people in truth, for You are the Best of those who give judgment." S. 7:88-89 Hilali-Khan
The Muslim scripture is also clear that a person whom Allah has chosen to mislead can never be guided, whereas the one whom he has been pleased to guide can never be misled by anyone:

Whomever God sends astray will not have any ally after Him. You will see the transgressors, when they see the retribution, saying: "Is there any way we can go back?" You will see them being displayed to it, in fearful humiliation, and looking, while trying to avoid looking. Those who acknowledged will say, “The losers are those who lost themselves and their families on the day of resurrection. The transgressors will be in a lasting retribution.” They had no allies to help them against God. Whomever God misguides will never find the way. S. 42:44-46 QRT
If you (O Muhammad) covet for their guidance then verily Allah guides not those whom HE MAKES to go astray (or none can guide him whom Allah sends astray). And they will have no helpers. S. 16:37 Hilali-Khan
Is not Allah Sufficient for His slave? Yet they try to frighten you with those (whom they worship) besides Him! And whom Allah sends astray, for him there will be no guide. And whomsoever Allah guides, for him there will be no misleader (mudillin). Is not Allah All-Mighty, Possessor of Retribution? S. 39:36-37 Hilali-Khan
No wonder the Quran says that Allah doesn’t take misleaders as his helpers:

And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc). I (Allah) made them (Iblis and his offspring) not to witness (nor took their help in) the creation of the heavens and the earth and not (even) their own creation, nor was I (Allah) to take the misleaders (al-mudilleena) as helpers. S. 18:50-51 Hilali-Khan
This makes absolute sense since why would the Islamic deity need anyone to help him mislead people when there is no one better than Allah at leading people astray in order to destroy them?

And yet the Quran speaks of people being punished for misguiding others from Allah’s path:

And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord (Allah Alone), turning to Him in repentance, but when He bestows a favour upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before, and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His Path. Say: "Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while: surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!” S. 39:8 Hilali-Khan
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allah, the Verses of the Qur'an) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire). S. 31:6 Hiali-Khan – cf. Q. 14:30; 16:25; 22:3-4, 8-9
What this basically means is that Allah is going to torture individuals for causing people to stray even though it was Allah’s will that they do so!

In other words, Allah is going to basically torment people in hell for doing the exact thing that was predetermined for them to do, and who do not have the ability to choose not to do it!

To make matters worse, if Allah has decided to destroy a people he first sends them the guidance of Islam, and then commands them to do evil in order to have a reason to wipe them out!

And Allah will never lead a people astray after He has guided them UNTIL He makes clear to them as to what they should avoid. Verily, Allah is the All-Knower of everything. S. 9:115
Whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever is misguided is for his own loss. No person shall carry the load of another, and We were not to punish until We send a messenger. And when We desire to destroy a town, We command its men who leave at ease, and they commit ungodliness in it, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it completely. S. 17:15-16
It is obvious why Allah would first send a nation whom he intends to destroy the knowledge of the religion. By receiving the message, the people are now culpable for rejecting it, which means that Allah now has the green light to go ahead and obliterate them. After all, as the above text makes clear, the Islamic deity will not destroy a group to whom a messenger hasn’t first been sent to warn them.

No wonder the Quran says that Allah shall not be questioned by anyone:

He will not be questioned as to that which He doeth, but they will be questioned. S. 21:23
It is obvious that Muhammad knew that his conception of God raised a host of moral problems which could not be satisfactorily answered. He, therefore, chose to scare people away from questioning his view regarding the deity with eternal torture in order to keep them obedient to his demands and desires.

Contrast this with the teachings of the Holy Bible. The inspired Scriptures emphatically proclaim that the true God desires that none of his human creatures perish and die, but that they repent from their wickedness so that they might live:

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? … Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” Ezekiel 18:23, 30-32
Yahweh calls out to the entire inhabited earth which he has created to turn to him and believe that he alone is a righteous God and Savior, since he desires that they all should be saved:

“For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the LORD, and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.” Isaiah 45:18-23
And:

“Now at Lystra there was a man sitting who could not use his feet. He was crippled from birth and had never walked. He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, ‘Stand upright on your feet.’ And he sprang up and began walking. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, ‘The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!’ Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, ‘Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them. In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.’” Acts 14:8-17
God even determined where and when everyone would live in order that they might seek for him and be saved:

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:24-31
This is also the reason why Yahweh chose to raise up a righteous Servant, in order that he might bring God’s salvation to the ends of the earth so that all the Gentiles might be saved along with Israel:

“Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. He made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow; in his quiver he hid me away. And he said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’ But I said, ‘I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.’ And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him—for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength—he says: ‘It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.’ Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: ‘Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages, saying to the prisoners, “Come out,” to those who are in darkness, “Appear.” They shall feed along the ways; on all bare heights shall be their pasture; they shall not hunger or thirst, neither scorching wind nor sun shall strike them, for he who has pity on them will lead them, and by springs of water will guide them.’” Isaiah 49:1-10
According to the NT, this promise was fulfilled when God sent forth his Son to assume the role of the Servant spoken of in Isaiah:

“And the angel said to them, ‘Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.’… Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said, ‘Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.’” Luke 2:10-11, 25-32
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” John 3:16-18
"Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, ‘He told me all that I ever did.’ So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.’” John 4:39-42
“If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.” John 12:47
“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.” 1 John 4:14
“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, AND TO the Lamb!’ And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, ‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.’ Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, ‘Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?’ I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’” Revelation 7:9-17
Moreover, the Holy Bible plainly teaches that the great deceiver who misleads people from the truth isn’t God, but the devil or Satan himself!

“And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” Revelation 12:9
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while… And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10
The Scriptures further tell us that Satan deceives people by using various means including human agents such as the antichrist, also known as the beast or the lawless one, whom the devil empowers to perform signs and wonders in order to cause people to stray away from believing in the Gospel:

“And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?’ And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear: If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.” Revelation 13:1-18
The Holy Bible also makes it quite clear that the only ones whom Satan is able to mislead and destroy are those whom God has become absolutely fed up with for refusing to repent of their sins and accepting the truth which God has made so plain to them. God, therefore, justly hands such reprobates over to their own desires and gives them what they want, which is to believe in anything except the truth of God:

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 – cf. Romans 1:18-28; Psalm 81:8-16
This means that God will never allow Satan to mislead any one who truly seeks after God and desires to know him, but will make sure to reveal himself to such a person as he has promised:

“But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 4:29
“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” 1 Chronicles 28:9 – cf. 2 Chronicles 15:2
“For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me. When you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the LORD, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.” Jeremiah 29:11-14
“And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Hebrews 11:6
The simple fact of the matter is that a Muslim will not find such comparable statements in the Quran. There are no verses which say that Allah loved the world, or that he desires that every creature that he has made to turn to him and live since he doesn’t take any delight in destroying the wicked.

In fact, the Quran goes out of its way to show that Allah doesn’t love everyone since he only loves faithful Muslims:

Lo! those who believe and do good works, the Beneficent will appoint for them love. S. 19:96 Pickthall
The Muslim scripture plainly says that Allah loves those who perform good deeds (2:195), those who are pure (2:222), those who are righteous (9:7), and those who fight in his cause (61:4). And yet when it comes to the transgressors (2:190), the ungrateful sinners (2:276), the unjust (3:57), or the proud (4:36), Allah has absolutely no love for them. And, as the following verses make clear, if you are not a Muhammadan, one who fully submits to Muhammad and his religion, then do not count on Allah loving you at all:

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. S. 3:31-32 Shakir
Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers. S. 30:43-45 Shakir
This basically means that Allah’s love is no greater or higher than disbelieving sinners according to Jesus, and therefore does not come close to the love that the true God has for all his creatures, including his enemies:

“The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.” Psalm 145:8-9
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.” Luke 6:27-36
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” Romans 5:8-11
In light of this, it is an absolute insult and even outright blasphemy to say that the deity so described in the Quran is the same God revealed in the Holy Bible. The Quranic depiction of Allah best describes Satan rather than the infinitely holy and loving God whom the Lord Jesus came to perfectly manifest by his life and sacrificial death:

“‘Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.’ Thomas said to him, ‘Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.’ Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.’” John 14:1-11
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.” John 15:9-15
“but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” Hebrews 1:2-3
“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another… And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world… By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:8-11, 14, 17-19
“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” 1 John 5:20
Unlike the Islamic deity who capriciously and arbitrarily creates people for the sole purpose of tormenting them in hell, like some sadist who gets off on inflicting excruciating torture on others,

Whoever Allah guides, then he is the guided one; and whoever He leads astray, then they are the losers. We have created for hell many jinn and men. They have hearts, yet they do not comprehend; they have eyes yet they do not see; they have ears yet they do not hear. They are like cattle; nay, they are even more astray. S. 7:178-179
Had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree; Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that He has created them. The word of your Lord came true: "I will fill hell with the Jinn and the humans together!" S. 11:118-119 QRT
If We had wished, We could have given every person its guidance, but the word from Me has taken effect, that I will fill hell with Jinn and humans all together. S. 32:13 QRT
The God revealed in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ doesn’t delight in afflicting or punishing the sons of men,

“For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men.” Lamentations 3:31-33
But actually grieves and weeps over having to destroy them for their wickedness and persistent rebellion:

“And when he drew near and saw the city, HE WEPT OVER IT, saying, ‘Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.’” Luke 19:41-44
Such a God is truly worthy of our love and worship, for he alone is worthy to be called God!
n several articles (1, 2, 3, 4) we have made mention that the Quran teaches outright that Allah is capable of lying and deceiving people. In fact, one of the titles which the Quran ascribes to Allah is khayru al-makireen, that Allah is "the best deceiver/schemer/conniver" (cf. S. 3:54; 8:30).

We want to continue our discussion regarding Allah being a deceiver by examining what the Quran says supposedly took place in paradise between Allah and Satan (called Iblis in the Quran) at the time of Adam’s creation. The Quran claims that Allah commanded all the angels to worship Adam, which Satan did not do, prompting Allah to ask him the reason why:


What makes this exchange rather shocking is that Satan accuses Allah of deceiving or misleading him! Here is what the text in question exactly says:


Note the various translations of this specific text by the different versions of the Quran:


The parallel version of this story reads slightly different:


Here is how various versions translate this passage:


Moreover, here is how some Muslim commentators explained S. 7:16:


What makes this even more interesting is that this particular word is always used in its various forms with a negative connotation:


And because Allah misled Satan the devil will now mislead others!


It is, therefore, clear from the foregoing that Satan was raising a serious charge against Allah’s character by basically identifying him as one who perverts, deceives, or misleads people from the true path!

It seems that the reason why Iblis felt that he had been misled is because Allah condemned him for not obeying a command which was given to the angels:


Note that both Suras 15 and 38 expressly say that ALL the angels prostrated in obedience to Allah’s directive. Yet according to the Quran Iblis is a jinn, not an angel!


In light of the foregoing, why did Allah blame Satan for not obeying an injunction which was imposed upon the angels and not the jinn? And doesn’t this demonstrate that Satan had a valid argument against Allah for being deceptive and misleading the devil since he blamed him for not obeying a command which wasn’t directed to him at all?

Satan may have also felt misled because of the fact that Allah condemns the worship of creatures:


And yet here he was watching Allah command angels to worship a creature!

A Muslim may claim that Satan falsely accused Allah of leading him astray, that Satan’s words shouldn’t be taken at face value since he is a liar and a slanderer. The first problem with this response is that Satan doesn’t always lie but, as even the Islamic sources themselves admit, can speak the truth:


More importantly, the Quran actually agrees with Satan since it unashamedly admits that Allah does deceive and mislead people!


There are other passages which, though not using the same word, teach the same point:


A Muslim may further say that Iblis’ response shows that his reason for not bowing to Adam had nothing to do with Allah’s order being directed to the angels, but out of pride and arrogance due to his being created from a superior element (fire) than man (dust). This really doesn’t solve the problem since one must account for the reason Satan thought he had been misled.

Here is a better explanation of the data, one which takes into account all the information provided by the Quran: Iblis’ refusal to bow may have been due to pride at first but he may have later realized that Allah hadn’t directed this command to him, but to the angels. He may have further reflected that Allah was commanding the angels to do the very thing which was forbidden, namely worshiping a creature. After reflecting on all this Satan concluded that he had been duped, even deceived, by Allah since the intention was to cast Iblis out of paradise.

Whatever the case, whatever the explanation, this point stands out clearly: Satan accused Allah of being a perverter, a misleader, with the Quran agreeing that this is what Allah truly is, going so far as to boast that Allah is actually the best schemer/deceiver of them all!

Unless noted otherwise, all of the citations were taken from the Hilali-Khan version of the Quran.


n several articles (1, 2, 3, 4) we have made mention that the Quran teaches outright that Allah is capable of lying and deceiving people. In fact, one of the titles which the Quran ascribes to Allah is khayru al-makireen, that Allah is "the best deceiver/schemer/conniver" (cf. S. 3:54; 8:30).

We want to continue our discussion regarding Allah being a deceiver by examining what the Quran says supposedly took place in paradise between Allah and Satan (called Iblis in the Quran) at the time of Adam’s creation. The Quran claims that Allah commanded all the angels to worship Adam, which Satan did not do, prompting Allah to ask him the reason why:


What makes this exchange rather shocking is that Satan accuses Allah of deceiving or misleading him! Here is what the text in question exactly says:


Note the various translations of this specific text by the different versions of the Quran:


The parallel version of this story reads slightly different:


Here is how various versions translate this passage:


Moreover, here is how some Muslim commentators explained S. 7:16:


What makes this even more interesting is that this particular word is always used in its various forms with a negative connotation:


And because Allah misled Satan the devil will now mislead others!


It is, therefore, clear from the foregoing that Satan was raising a serious charge against Allah’s character by basically identifying him as one who perverts, deceives, or misleads people from the true path!

It seems that the reason why Iblis felt that he had been misled is because Allah condemned him for not obeying a command which was given to the angels:


Note that both Suras 15 and 38 expressly say that ALL the angels prostrated in obedience to Allah’s directive. Yet according to the Quran Iblis is a jinn, not an angel!


In light of the foregoing, why did Allah blame Satan for not obeying an injunction which was imposed upon the angels and not the jinn? And doesn’t this demonstrate that Satan had a valid argument against Allah for being deceptive and misleading the devil since he blamed him for not obeying a command which wasn’t directed to him at all?

Satan may have also felt misled because of the fact that Allah condemns the worship of creatures:


And yet here he was watching Allah command angels to worship a creature!

A Muslim may claim that Satan falsely accused Allah of leading him astray, that Satan’s words shouldn’t be taken at face value since he is a liar and a slanderer. The first problem with this response is that Satan doesn’t always lie but, as even the Islamic sources themselves admit, can speak the truth:


More importantly, the Quran actually agrees with Satan since it unashamedly admits that Allah does deceive and mislead people!


There are other passages which, though not using the same word, teach the same point:


A Muslim may further say that Iblis’ response shows that his reason for not bowing to Adam had nothing to do with Allah’s order being directed to the angels, but out of pride and arrogance due to his being created from a superior element (fire) than man (dust). This really doesn’t solve the problem since one must account for the reason Satan thought he had been misled.

Here is a better explanation of the data, one which takes into account all the information provided by the Quran: Iblis’ refusal to bow may have been due to pride at first but he may have later realized that Allah hadn’t directed this command to him, but to the angels. He may have further reflected that Allah was commanding the angels to do the very thing which was forbidden, namely worshiping a creature. After reflecting on all this Satan concluded that he had been duped, even deceived, by Allah since the intention was to cast Iblis out of paradise.

Whatever the case, whatever the explanation, this point stands out clearly: Satan accused Allah of being a perverter, a misleader, with the Quran agreeing that this is what Allah truly is, going so far as to boast that Allah is actually the best schemer/deceiver of them all!

Unless noted otherwise, all of the citations were taken from the Hilali-Khan version of the Quran.
didnt read, too long
 
DenHaag

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I bet a 4-day ban hammer policy will emerge for religious wars just like the race wars.

We can always talk about the weather.

Cold out.
 
TheNonSmoker

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Tbh, Jesus was a Hardcore Incel of his times.
 
fortniteroleplayer

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You're the one known as the spammer though :waitwhat:

You post walls of text but you won't respond to mine. Very cowardly. And since you keep lying you need to debunk this video point by point as well

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8zWoXFjUk


The whole one hour. I bet you won't because you can't, you coward. :D

I already have SCREENSHOTS OF U ADMITTING JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD LOL and in John it says JESUS IS THE WORD. WORD IS GOD. Everyone read it and is LAUGHING at u LOL
Then u took like 20 minutes just to reply and now ure spazzing out for weeks messaging me on my wall
I WAS LOGGED OUT FOR WEEKS AND U COULDNT GET ME OUT OF UR HEAD I OWN U UR MY BITCH LOSER LOL
 
Uggo Mongo

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I already have SCREENSHOTS OF U ADMITTING JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD LOL and in John it says JESUS IS THE WORD. WORD IS GOD. Everyone read it and is LAUGHING at u LOL
Then u took like 20 minutes just to reply and now ure spazzing out for weeks messaging me on my wall
I WAS LOGGED OUT FOR WEEKS AND U COULDNT GET ME OUT OF UR HEAD I OWN U UR MY BITCH LOSER LOL
:giga: you really are possessed by demons. You've been stewing for weeks and still couldn't refute those videos point by point with timestamps? I knew you couldn't do it.
 
fortniteroleplayer

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:giga: you really are possessed by demons. You've been stewing for weeks and still couldn't refute those videos point by point with timestamps? I knew you couldn't do it.
oh look the loser is back he couldnt help himself LOLOLOLOLOLOL didn't read btw everyone is laughing at u and GOD HATES u

I already have SCREENSHOTS OF U ADMITTING JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD LOL and in John it says JESUS IS THE WORD. WORD IS GOD. Everyone read it and is LAUGHING at u LOL
Then u took like 20 minutes just to reply and now ure spazzing out for weeks messaging me on my wall
I WAS LOGGED OUT FOR WEEKS AND U COULDNT GET ME OUT OF UR HEAD I OWN U UR MY BITCH LOSER LOL
 
Uggo Mongo

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oh look the loser is back he couldnt help himself LOLOLOLOLOLOL didn't read btw everyone is laughing at u and GOD HATES u

I already have SCREENSHOTS OF U ADMITTING JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD LOL and in John it says JESUS IS THE WORD. WORD IS GOD. Everyone read it and is LAUGHING at u LOL
Then u took like 20 minutes just to reply and now ure spazzing out for weeks messaging me on my wall
I WAS LOGGED OUT FOR WEEKS AND U COULDNT GET ME OUT OF UR HEAD I OWN U UR MY BITCH LOSER LOL
did-you-forget-to-take-your-medication-geoff-hamill.gif


The meds will help you with the voices.
 
fortniteroleplayer

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did-you-forget-to-take-your-medication-geoff-hamill.gif


The meds will help you with the voices.
stop talking to urself schitzo LOL what a ugly loser. I put a curse on u in the Name of The LORD YAHWEH

u will have Utter Torment Forever, u will have Aganozing Utter Horrrrrible Pain in this life, and then Eternal Torment in Hell Forever with ur daddy loserfer. :)
 
Uggo Mongo

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stop talking to urself schitzo LOL what a ugly loser. I put a curse on u in the Name of The LORD YAHWEH

u will have Utter Torment Forever, u will have Aganozing Utter Horrrrrible Pain in this life, and then Eternal Torment in Hell Forever with ur daddy loserfer. :)
Witchcraft isn't godly. The voices have you confused. Please just take your meds.
 
bigantennaemay1

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Hey, I'm not reading all that text, man! Holy fuck that's obnoxious. :smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk::smonk:
 
Uggo Mongo

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The Satanic voices he's hearing in his head have him very confused and incelophobic and hateful towards truecels. He needs his meds, and he needs to go on another vacation.
 
fortniteroleplayer

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I cursed @Uggo Mongo in the Name of The LORD like the prophet Elisha did to those satanic bullies in the Bible. he will be Tormented Severely and Utterly before Burning in Hell for Eternity.

JESUS IS LORD
 
Uggo Mongo

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I cursed @Uggo Mongo in the Name of The LORD like the prophet Elisha did to those satanic bullies in the Bible. he will be Tormented Severely and Utterly before Burning in Hell for Eternity.

JESUS IS LORD
You posted about your plans to rape and kill women.

Whoa, very dark-sided my dude.

"Thou shalt not kill!" Very important Biblical commandment.

It's pretty obvious you're possessed by demons, doesn't get more obvious than your behavior today.

I will pray for you.
 
Linesnap99

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long ass thread.
 
bigantennaemay1

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I cursed @Uggo Mongo in the Name of The LORD like the prophet Elisha did to those satanic bullies in the Bible. he will be Tormented Severely and Utterly before Burning in Hell for Eternity.

JESUS IS LORD
Stuff it, bible boy.
 
bigantennaemay1

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The Satanic voices he's hearing in his head have him very confused and incelophobic and hateful towards truecels. He needs his meds, and he needs to go on another vacation.
He's gonna need more than meds and a vacation.
 
Uggo Mongo

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He's gonna need more than meds and a vacation.
He'll need the power of Christ, but he won't turn away the demonic voices in his head. Very unsettling :(
 
Govid_Dorious

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AspieWaffen Division soldier
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Joined
Feb 6, 2023
Posts
5,433
he's back, masked menace was unbanned
 
gonzoalez

gonzoalez

Recruit
★★★
Joined
Feb 17, 2023
Posts
232
“I saw my Lord in the most beautiful form like a youth with abundant hair.” (al-Daraqutni, Kitab al-Ru’ya, 332-333; 356-357; similar reports from Umm al-Tufayl, Anas b. Malik, Mu’adh b. ‘Afra, Ibn ‘Umar, ‘A’isha, Ibn ‘Abbas; Reported by Tabarani; Ibn Abi ‘Asim; al-Bayhaqi; al-Suyuti; al-Haythami; Ibn ‘Adi, al-Baghdadi)

I saw my Lord in the form of a young man, beardless (amrad) with short curly hair (ja’d) and clothed in a red garment. (Narrated by Ahmad b. Hanbal in Tabarani; AUTHENTICATED BY AHMAD B. HANBAL in Creed 3 citing isnad, ‘Abd al-Samad b. Yahya in Tabaqat al-Hanabila, 1:218, al-Marrudhi (d. 888) in Tabaqat, 3:81, Ibn ‘Aqil in Makdisi, Ibn ‘Aqil, 130; Ibn ‘Adi al-Qattan, al-Kamil fi du’afa’ al-rijal, 3:49-50, al-Daraqutni, Kitab al-Ru’ya, 332-333, 356-357; al-Tabarani, al-Mu’jam al-Kabir, 25:143; SAHIH BY ABU L-HASAN B. BASHSHAR in Ibn Abi Ya’la, Tabaqat, 2:59; Abu Ya’la, al-Muta’mad, 85; ACCEPTED BY IBN TAYMIYYA in Bayan Tablis al-Jahmiyya, 7:192-198, 290)

Here’s what one of sunni Islam’s greatest hadith scholars said about the aforementioned report:

Ahmad b. Hanbal said about the above hadith: “Report it because the ‘ulama have reported it.” (‘Abd al-Samad b. Yahya reported in Tabaqat al-Hanabila, 1:218)
Islam worships a femboy\prettyboy. As does hinduism (Krishna).
pretty femboys are literally god :feelsUnreal:
 
spasticbuddy

spasticbuddy

Veteran
★★
Joined
Mar 5, 2023
Posts
1,168
Reincarnation is based Mang
 
proudweeb

proudweeb

what colour is your bugatti
★★★★★
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Posts
318,428
You're the one known as the spammer though :waitwhat:

You post walls of text but you won't respond to mine. Very cowardly. And since you keep lying you need to debunk this video point by point as well

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA8zWoXFjUk


The whole one hour. I bet you won't because you can't, you coward. :D

Based and fascinating video. Gonna listen to the whole hour of this at work tomorrow (srs lol)
 
ResidentHell

ResidentHell

Officer
Joined
Jul 30, 2022
Posts
590
Massive cope thread. It's clear @fortniteroleplayer was the most religiously insane user in the history of this forum (if not one of them)

But @fortniteroleplayer made some good arguments about the discredibility of Islam. @Uggo Mongo made good points about Christianity and the efforts made to validate God's 'divinity' by manipulation / modification of biblical scriptures
 
Last edited:
Med Amine

Med Amine

砂地
★★★★★
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Posts
6,733
he isn't even christian, he became atheist at some level
 
C

Conflicted Man

Greycel
Joined
Sep 19, 2022
Posts
13
The Bible is full of contradictions, Christians believe that the earth is 6000 years old, the sun revolves around the earth etc. It is very clearly a false religion and full of polytheism and idolatry.

Doesn't really matter though, christianity is dying and has the largest rates of apostasy. Islam on the other hand is the fastest growing because tawheed is the truth. Mohammed Hijab mogged David Wood so hard in this debate it isn't even funny

View: https://youtu.be/3k6MBedWTww

There's large numbers of nominal Muslims, apostates and closeted ex-muslims in the "Arabian" world.
 

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