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Theory Real Gender Studies 102 - the Neolithic

K9Otaku

K9Otaku

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This is the second installment in the "real gender studies" series. It follows the one below:

At the start of the Neolithic (around 10 000 years BC), mankind shifted from the hunter-gatherer lifestyle to farming.

In the previous OP, we had compared the average kilo-calories brought back to camp by men and women in a paleolithic context. Here is what the curve becomes in the Neolithic.
Calories Neolithic


In the paleolithic, men pursued a pure high-risk/high-return food gathering strategy (hunting) while women pursued a pure low-risk/low-return one (gathering plant food)

In the Neolithic, most men have converted to a medium-risk/medium-return strategy (farming) while the most talented men still pursue a pure high-risk/high-return one (hunting, increasingly supplemented by pillaging). Women are cooperating with farming men and have also raised their output on account of the superior efficiency of farming. The result is a significant food surplus. Population shoots up.

All this is well known and (relatively) uncontroversial.

Now the real kicker is this: how did this happen ? What force made the changes possible ?

The most likely explanation is the switch to farming occurred as a byproduct of the "feasts of merit" organized by men-only ritual associations. These are believed to be the origins of the megalithic monuments like Stonehenge or Göbekli Tepe
Stonehenge2007 07 30
Gbekli Tepe Urfa

The male-only associations who built these monuments were able to impose a new sexual distribution order on their own members. The alpha-male accepted to grant a woman to each non-alpha member in exchange for the support of all males in prestige-building projects. It might also have happened the other way around: all non-alpha males ganging up on the alpha to demand a female for themselves and offering to build a monument in exchange to increase the alpha's prestige.

Whichever way it happened, it was the beginning of monogamy.

Women accepted the new order for 2 reasons:
  1. The new food strategy benefited them and their offspring as a result of higher food abundance.
  2. Most men had accepted a food-gathering strategy that was less risky than pure hunting and with which risk-averse women felt reasonably comfortable.
  3. Each woman now had her own "dominant" male (her husband) and could therefore trick her sexual instincts into giving her an orgasm.
The last point is crucial as it explains why women came to accept to be "dominated" by men during the switch to farming. Women basically accepted a demotion in status in exchange for the additional food safety and also because being "dominated" by their husbands gave them some ability to still enjoy sex.

Of course, a woman's orgasms will always be better when she is fucked by the alpha-chad, but having your own mini-alpha in your own house was an acceptable substitute. The extra food made it well worth it.

This is why, in farming societies, arose the idea that the "virtuous woman" is the one who is content with her husband and foregoes the allure of the alpha.
 
off topic. we are in post tinder age.
 
@SergeantIncel @knajjd @Master

I submit this thread to be added to the pinned section.
 
you'd pass the Turing test but unironically.
 
Also one thing:

How is it that in the "post tinder age" we are regressing to the paleolithic (see RGS 101)?
a bit political. simps vote for foids.
 
foids are liberal for chad only.
Over for gender studies cel. I want to study pussy.
This is pussy studies. If you really want to understand how pussy works, you have to study them in the wild. The Paleolithic is the closest thing to that.
 
The last point is crucial as it explains why women came to accept to be "dominated" by men during the switch to farming. Women basically accepted a demotion in status in exchange for the additional food safety and also because being "dominated" by their husbands gave them some ability to still enjoy sex.
We need this to be everywhere.
 
This is the second installment in the "real gender studies" series. It follows the one below:

At the start of the Neolithic (around 10 000 years BC), mankind shifted from the hunter-gatherer lifestyle to farming.

In the previous OP, we had compared the average kilo-calories brought back to camp by men and women in a paleolithic context. Here is what the curve becomes in the Neolithic.
View attachment 500529

In the paleolithic, men pursued a pure high-risk/high-return food gathering strategy (hunting) while women pursued a pure low-risk/low-return one (gathering plant food)

In the Neolithic, most men have converted to a medium-risk/medium-return strategy (farming) while the most talented men still pursue a pure high-risk/high-return one (hunting, increasingly supplemented by pillaging). Women are cooperating with farming men and have also raised their output on account of the superior efficiency of farming. The result is a significant food surplus. Population shoots up.

All this is well known and (relatively) uncontroversial.

Now the real kicker is this: how did this happen ? What force made the changes possible ?

The most likely explanation is the switch to farming occurred as a byproduct of the "feasts of merit" organized by men-only ritual associations. These are believed to be the origins of the megalithic monuments like Stonehenge or Göbekli Tepe
View attachment 500532View attachment 500533
The male-only associations who built these monuments were able to impose a new sexual distribution order on their own members. The alpha-male accepted to grant a woman to each non-alpha member in exchange for the support of all males in prestige-building projects. It might also have happened the other way around: all non-alpha males ganging up on the alpha to demand a female for themselves and offering to build a monument in exchange to increase the alpha's prestige.

Whichever way it happened, it was the beginning of monogamy.

Women accepted the new order for 2 reasons:
  1. The new food strategy benefited them and their offspring as a result of higher food abundance.
  2. Most men had accepted a food-gathering strategy that was less risky than pure hunting and with which risk-averse women felt reasonably comfortable.
  3. Each woman now had her own "dominant" male (her husband) and could therefore trick her sexual instincts into giving her an orgasm.
The last point is crucial as it explains why women came to accept to be "dominated" by men during the switch to farming. Women basically accepted a demotion in status in exchange for the additional food safety and also because being "dominated" by their husbands gave them some ability to still enjoy sex.

Of course, a woman's orgasms will always be better when she is fucked by the alpha-chad, but having your own mini-alpha in your own house was an acceptable substitute. The extra food made it well worth it.

This is why, in farming societies, arose the idea that the "virtuous woman" is the one who is content with her husband and foregoes the allure of the alpha.

A "mini-alpha". I like the way you have out it. Appreciate the post @K9Otaku . Your posts are based and worth reading for discussion.

So one might ask; is the mini-alpha concept on it's way out in our current society? For some of us we have experienced the difficulty and bi-products of this being gone fully in certain places and circles growing up I think right? ..
 
A "mini-alpha". I like the way you have out it. Appreciate the post @K9Otaku . Your posts are based and worth reading for discussion.
Yes, the husband was a mini-alpha from the POV of the wife. It is quite clear that marriage is meaningless if he isn't.

So one might ask; is the mini-alpha concept on it's way out in our current society? For some of us we have experienced the difficulty and bi-products of this being gone fully in certain places and circles growing up I think right? ..
Yes, the husband as a "mini-alpha" in our society is gone. Only the Muslims are trying to keep this alive and I don't think they are really successful.

In any case, we have to admit that we are no longer primarily a farming society. So it may be that the demise of the "mini-alpha" husband was inevitable.
 
I never really liked that paleolithic idea that we had this alpha male guy fucking all girls while the others rot, when in reality this is not how most primitive cultures work today, not even chimps organize themselves in such way. Gorillas do.

It's just not practical. You know when this is practical? In a post-agricultural society where you have different castes and a whole system who can sustain that, like a fief where you have a lord with an army and servants, this guy can have multiple women.

In a paleolithic environment? A tribe with at most a 100 individuals? This guy would just get murdered.
 
I never really liked that paleolithic idea that we had this alpha male guy fucking all girls while the others rot, when in reality this is not how most primitive cultures work today, not even chimps organize themselves in such way. Gorillas do.

It's just not practical. You know when this is practical? In a post-agricultural society where you have different castes and a whole system who can sustain that, like a fief where you have a lord with an army and servants, this guy can have multiple women.

In a paleolithic environment? A tribe with at most a 100 individuals? This guy would just get murdered.
All mammals have an alpha-male.
 
All mammals have an alpha-male.
not at all

but that's not even the point. It's not like the "alpha" or leader is exactly the guy who should get all the pussy. In humans primitive societies the leader is usually an older guy, not exactly the gl heartrobber. He may have multiple wifes, but not as if the other guys don't get to breed.

In fact, even guys with no status at all can have more than one wife, it's more on the nature of the sex ratio in such communities.
 
not at all
All mammals have male competition for females.

All social mammals have an alpha

but that's not even the point. It's not like the "alpha" or leader is exactly the guy who should get all the pussy. In humans primitive societies the leader is usually an older guy, not exactly the gl heartrobber. He may have multiple wifes, but not as if the other guys don't get to breed.
In today's primitive societies, it is hard to determine what is truly "primitive" and what has been borrowed from the surrounding more advanced societies. Drawing conclusions about how things were 100 000 years ago is tricky. I think (and I am not alone) that assuming that human groups kept the usual alpha-centric organization of social mammals up to the Neolithic is the simplest hypothesis (Occam's razor)

Old-dude centric organization, with or without monogamy for the non-alphas, is comparatively recent. It makes sense to assume that it mostly appeared after the agricultural revolution. Before that there was no need for it. Until the end of the Paleolithic, humans still had the same general lifestyle as most primate species. Why would they not have continued to follow basic mammal instincts?
In fact, even guys with no status at all can have more than one wife, it's more on the nature of the sex ratio in such communities.
What societies exactly do you have in mind?
 
Yes, the husband was a mini-alpha from the POV of the wife. It is quite clear that marriage is meaningless if he isn't.
Makes sense.


Yes, the husband as a "mini-alpha" in our society is gone. Only the Muslims are trying to keep this alive and I don't think they are really successful.
Ha. The Muslims. Still trying to fix shit by covering up their women in full body PPE gear eh? :feelsthink:[UWSL]...They must've been ahead of the game and knew Corona bullshit was coming hundreds of years ago :feelsgah:[/UWSL]

In any case, we have to admit that we are no longer primarily a farming society. So it may be that the demise of the "mini-alpha" husband was inevitable.
Sad and scary to accept but probably true!
 
The switch to agriculture was due the fact that was more effective and also the massive dead of big game
 
The switch to agriculture was due the fact that was more effective and also the massive dead of big game
Nope

That is not how evolution works. Many things that are "better" do not happen for millions of years. Some extra factor must be present for change to actually take place. Besides, there is no sign that big game was scarce in the Middle East when the transition to agriculture took place.
 
All mammals have male competition for females.

All social mammals have an alpha

I hightly doubt it, actually thats a pretty absurd claim and I doubt you have that knowledge on mammals to claim so. It is surely common but not always. I can think on the top of my head I few who aren't (hyenas, tigers, meerkats, orcas etc)

In today's primitive societies, it is hard to determine what is truly "primitive" and what has been borrowed from the surrounding more advanced societies. Drawing conclusions about how things were 100 000 years ago is tricky. I think (and I am not alone) that assuming that human groups kept the usual alpha-centric organization of social mammals up to the Neolithic is the simplest hypothesis (Occam's razor)

Old-dude centric organization, with or without monogamy for the non-alphas, is comparatively recent. It makes sense to assume that it mostly appeared after the agricultural revolution. Before that there was no need for it. Until the end of the Paleolithic, humans still had the same general lifestyle as most primate species. Why would they not have continued to follow basic mammal instincts?
It's still a way more grounded way to infere it than making theories out of nowhere based on how birds and gorillas behave sexually. You don't need to reinvent the wheel on trying to figure out how humans behave, humans are alive today (and btw, there are still humans who have virtually zero contact with modern society to this day, and even if they did, my point is that it's more the environment they live that shape this way of organizing themselves. It's irrelevant if they had or not contact with us if they're still living outside our "system" so to speak and by their own rules limited by their environment).

The same thing you said in the last line can be applied here, why would they change? Except it's not a good argument because there are plenty of reasons why they would change from environment to genetic drift and so on. Of course we would need evidence to support it otherwise it's wise to assume it didn't change. Also I don't believe this is basic mammal instinct. Basic mammal instinct is caring for their young, for instance. Only (and mostly) sexual dimorphic species are out there competing for females, not all of them.

Also idk where you (and most people) took this idea that this is how most primates behave, it's not. Especially the ones close related to us. Primates are known for their complex social behavior, not so black and white as people make it be. And humans exceed that even more, we have way more complex behavior than most animals. This, is drawing conclusions.

And the end of the paleolithic, anatomically modern humans were around already. I'm sorry but that's just plain nonsense. Unless by primitive you mean extremely ancient hominid species which we have even less evidence of their behavior, and since not even chimps behave in such way you are suggesting, why we would assume it would work this way for our ancestors?
 
I hightly doubt it, actually thats a pretty absurd claim and I doubt you have that knowledge on mammals to claim so. It is surely common but not always. I can think on the top of my head I few who aren't (hyenas, tigers, meerkats, orcas etc)
One question you have to ask yourself is this: who has "knowledge" of animals?

50 years ago, all ethologists spoke about "dominant males" for all mammal species and it seemed quite uncontroversial. Now, every nature documentary would have you believe that there are "complex" hierarchies among animals, in which females play as important a role as males. Really!? How strange! Just as cucked feminism has invaded every corner of our society, biologists are discovering that there is "female dominance" in nature ... How convenient! I do not buy it. To me, it is clear that when people were not yet hoodwinked by feminism, male dominance was the overarching behavioral trait in mammals. I do not think that all the garbage that has been added in the last 50 years is credible. Remember that they can show you whatever they want in a nature documentary. It is like the news. Very easy to manipulate.

So, to me the bottom line is this: there are male fighting for females in every mammal species and in most social mammals (those that live predominantly in groups) there is a dominant male which has preferential access to females for a certain period of time.

Everything else is just a cucked attempt to obscure the facts because they are inconvenient to feminists.

Cucked
 
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One question you have to ask yourself is this: who has "knowledge" of animals?

50 years ago, all ethologists spoke about "dominant males" for all mammal species and it seemed quite uncontroversial. Now, every nature documentary would have you believe that there are "complex" hierarchies among animals, in which females play as important a role as males. Really!? How strange! Just as cucked feminism has invaded every corner of our society, biologists are discovering that there is "female dominance" in nature ... How convenient! I do not buy it. To me, it is clear that when people were not yet hoodwinked by feminism, male dominance was the overarching behavioral trait in mammals. I do not think that all the garbage that has been added in the last 50 years is credible. Remember that they can show you whatever they want in a nature documentary. It is like the news. Very easy to manipulate.

So, to me the bottom line is this: there are male fighting for females in every mammal species and in most social mammals (those that live predominantly in groups) there is a dominant male which has preferential access to females for a certain period of time.

Everything else is just a cucked attempt to obscure the facts because they are inconvenient to feminists.
Nature doesn't really care about what we or foids think about it, it is what it is. In some species, albeit rare females are the larger ones and naturally have more dominance in their social organization. But I'm not exactly addressing this subject.

Again, you're not even getting my point. You think it's cucked the fact that not all species follow some retarded "muh alpha fux beta bux" social behavior, but in my view this is rather the cucked thing. Males competing over foids like stupid brutes is basically what humans modern society is about. It's all on foids.

Meanwhile, the evidence for our social behavior before the agricultural revolution shows a completely different way of social organization: women are worth less than a penny and men get to decide how things are. In this organization, monogamy or similar forms of pair bonding are the baseline. Why do you think things like the concept of marriage is virtually universal among humans?

It also makes perfect sense, humans are not animals who can't really only on their physical strength, we are more about intelligence and group dynamics. Do you really think one Chad fucking all women and dozens of healthy men as capable of him would just let it happen and contribuite to this organization? It's moronic. Not even chimps let this happen, betrayals and overthrowns are common in their societies.

The only way something this cucked could happen is through the support of an structure like the state or some sort of similar system, which is exactly what happens in this neolithic transition with the first cities and stuff. Even then we managed to maintain a monogamous-based system for quite a while (maybe due to males' high mortality rate).
 
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Nature doesn't really care about we or foids think about it, it is what it is.
Sure. But how do YOU know what it is? You think you know because some TV documentary told you? Or some paper you read? You have certainly not spent a lifetime observing animals (neither did I).

So the question is: why should you trust what you have been told about animal behavior (and other subjects too)?

Nature is what it is, to be sure. But we can only have any idea about it only through intermediaries. Then, the question becomes: what intermediaries do you trust?

I personally don't trust anything biologist or archeologists or any so-called "scientists" have been saying in the last 50 years. Before that, I trust some.
 
Sure. But how do YOU know what it is? You think you know because some TV documentary told you? Or some paper you read? You have certainly not spent a lifetime observing animals (neither did I).

So the question is: why should you trust what you have been told about animal behavior (and other subjects too)?

Nature is what it is, to be sure. But we can only have any idea about it only through intermediaries. Then, the question becomes: what intermediaries do you trust?

I personally don't trust anything biologist or archeologists or any so-called "scientists" have been saying in the last 50 years. Before that, I trust some.
Fair enough, science can be tendencious as well (and it often does). Well, we shouldn't, at least to some extent I think knowing more or less how things work in nature you can have more or less an idea of which things are bs and which ones aren't through some common sense.

Paleontology for instance is a science full of bs and bold/absurd claims being made out of thin air. Someone finds a fragment of a tooth and boom: a new species is described, which is just stupid.

Some things though are harder to fake, as you know some of those things are still, at least theorically observable (theorically we could do it) so at least for now there's still the possibility of bad science being refuted by third parties who actually go in-field and examine things. For now...
 
Glad yer still around k90

Interesting post, unfortunately it requires one to beLIEve in "we was cavemen ~14,000 years ago." Otherwise it's ok... Perhaps a bit too simple for your skillset.
 
Glad yer still around k90

Interesting post, unfortunately it requires one to beLIEve in "we was cavemen ~14,000 years ago." Otherwise it's ok... Perhaps a bit too simple for your skillset.
Hi Emba, ...

Wait for the next installments. You will see what this is truly about ...

Are you Tenshi's alt ?
 
Happy to see the discussion. This is what the main purpose here should be all about, I feel.

My question is: Should women be the carriers for our Trust and Credit any longer? And can they even be trusted to play this role with all decay in Western society? In the past wasn't it women that helped to establish credibility? And now it's almost as if women are used to generate fake credit. And likewise in our current society it seems like one cannot be seen as having credibility unless he is literally surrounded by women who approve of him...:feelsautistic:
 
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My question is: Should women be the carriers for our Trust and Credit any longer?
No. Women have become so intoxicated with bullshit that there is no way they can be trusted in any foreseeable future.
 
Happy to see the discussion. This is what the main purpose here should be all about, I feel.

My question is: Should women be the carriers for our Trust and Credit any longer? And can they even be trusted to play this role with all decay in Western society? In the past wasn't it women that helped to establish credibility? And now it's almost as if women are used to generate fake credit. And likewise in our current society it seems like one cannot be seen as having credibility unless he is literally surrounded by women who approve of him...:feelsautistic:
Now THAT is an interesting - yet fairly obvious - thought.

Vag as (fake) social credit.!?

It's like a positive reference on a life resume! Damn!
 
Now THAT is an interesting - yet fairly obvious - thought.

Vag as (fake) social credit.!?

It's like a positive reference on a life resume! Damn!
Yes. We can call it "VagCredit" :feelsokman:

1 VagCredit in real life = 5 professional references on Resume/LinkedIn..or something like that.
 
Yes. We can call it "VagCredit" :feelsokman:

1 VagCredit in real life = 5 professional references on Resume/LinkedIn..or something like that.
Vagcred also called the v-card
 
Vagcred also called the v-card
That works too :feelsokman:

But I like VagCard or VagCredit.

Chad's that require no references to get a job are carrying the "VagPlatinum"
 
I never really liked that paleolithic idea that we had this alpha male guy fucking all girls while the others rot, when in reality this is not how most primitive cultures work today, not even chimps organize themselves in such way. Gorillas do.

It's just not practical. You know when this is practical? In a post-agricultural society where you have different castes and a whole system who can sustain that, like a fief where you have a lord with an army and servants, this guy can have multiple women.

In a paleolithic environment? A tribe with at most a 100 individuals? This guy would just get murdered.
Because its wrong, most hunter gatherer tribes had monogamous relationships, you can see that from the semi/contacted tribes that exist in South America and Africa.

Hell that ideas doesnt even match with other primates.

Most of this is pre agricultural life theories are made up, with no proof.
 
Because its wrong, most hunter gatherer tribes had monogamous relationships, you can see that from the semi/contacted tribes that exist in South America and Africa.
semi/contacted tribes have, by definition, been influenced by their farming neighbors. That is why they are monogamous.

Paleolithic hunter gatherers were not.
 
Because its wrong, most hunter gatherer tribes had monogamous relationships, you can see that from the semi/contacted tribes that exist in South America and Africa.

Hell that ideas doesnt even match with other primates.

Most of this is pre agricultural life theories are made up, with no proof.
that's my point. Humans tend much more towards monogamy and our basal societal organization is kinda made to work within these rules, this can be seen today, throughout history and looking at the most technologically primitive humans alive today. Most humans were/are monogamous and very few individuals would go the other route.

Like I said in my example even in a fief, even if the lords were polygamous in their system, the peasants and commoners would still be monogamous.
 
that's my point. Humans tend much more towards monogamy and our basal societal organization is kinda made to work within these rules, this can be seen today, throughout history and looking at the most technologically primitive humans alive today. Most humans were/are monogamous and very few individuals would go the other route.

Like I said in my example even in a fief, even if the lords were polygamous in their system, the peasants and commoners would still be monogamous.

I think that people tends towards monogamy post agriculture, but only to a point. Its also reliant on what options they have available. Commoners were monogamous because they had to be. Obviously higher castes like lords weren't as restricted.

It would be more accurate to say humans generally tend towards serial monogamy. Note how easily people divorce and remarry when given the chance and start new families/ sire children with other spouses. Then there's the studies from years back which noted many women are geared towards tiring of their husbands around 4 years or so, becoming more sexually adamant when they acquire a new partner. Strict monogamy has to be enforced by culture.
 
I think that people tends towards monogamy post agriculture, but only to a point. Its also reliant on what options they have available. Commoners were monogamous because they had to be. Obviously higher castes like lords weren't as restricted.

It would be more accurate to say humans generally tend towards serial monogamy. Note how easily people divorce and remarry when given the chance and start new families/ sire children with other spouses. Then there's the studies from years back which noted many women are geared towards tiring of their husbands around 4 years or so, becoming more sexually adamant when they acquire a new partner. Strict monogamy has to be enforced by culture.
non-monogamy wouldn't be practical either way (even nowadays to a certain extent although it is much more acceptable), I was just pointing out that you'd a post agricultural society to make things like these work.

As for the serial monogamy, I kinda agree that this is a recurring thing, but at the same time it's a much more modern thing, especially given how common these things have become. We have to understand that modern humans, especially in the last 50 years have been exposed to very weird stimuli that shaped very badly the way we operate, not even only things related to feminism and so on, even things like capitalism changed the way human interactions happen.
 
I think that people tends towards monogamy post agriculture, but only to a point. Its also reliant on what options they have available. Commoners were monogamous because they had to be. Obviously higher castes like lords weren't as restricted.

It would be more accurate to say humans generally tend towards serial monogamy. Note how easily people divorce and remarry when given the chance and start new families/ sire children with other spouses. Then there's the studies from years back which noted many women are geared towards tiring of their husbands around 4 years or so, becoming more sexually adamant when they acquire a new partner. Strict monogamy has to be enforced by culture.
Yes
 
I think that people tends towards monogamy post agriculture, but only to a point. Its also reliant on what options they have available. Commoners were monogamous because they had to be. Obviously higher castes like lords weren't as restricted.

It would be more accurate to say humans generally tend towards serial monogamy. Note how easily people divorce and remarry when given the chance and start new families/ sire children with other spouses. Then there's the studies from years back which noted many women are geared towards tiring of their husbands around 4 years or so, becoming more sexually adamant when they acquire a new partner. Strict monogamy has to be enforced by culture.

Makes sense.
 
semi/contacted tribes have, by definition, been influenced by their farming neighbors. That is why they are monogamous.

Paleolithic hunter gatherers were not.
And how do you know that ?

There is no proof that majority of the males jerked off while 1 or 2 "alpha male" fucked all the girls in the tribe.
 
And how do you know that ?

There is no proof that majority of the males jerked off while 1 or 2 "alpha male" fucked all the girls in the tribe.
It is by far the likeliest hypothesis. In science, you never have proof. You just have hypotheses which are more or less corroborated by evidence.

This particular one is well corroborated.
 
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