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Discussion Jung is right (with a caveat) and autonomy is real.

aeoae

aeoae

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If we consider consciousness as a stratified construct (like a cake), at the bottom lies our mechanistic nervous system. Because this primitive system is physical, and because it exists virtually unchanged in lower-order organisms, we can -- and have -- studied it extensively. This is the domain of touch-response and physical pain. Let's refer to this as layer 1.

On layer 2 rests our primitive subconscious. This is where our mechanistic mind interacts on a base-level with neurotransmitters. Citing the work of J. Nestor, this system is intrinsically connected, perhaps as a mediator, between layers 1 and 3. Layer 2 is correlated with physical drug addiction, including forum addiction.

Layer 3 is where our true animal brain rests. This layer involves basic emotions such as anger and love, although it's fundamentally still bereft of abstraction. Notions, whims and desires in their simplest forms reside here, all of them tied to the physical stimuli of layers 1 and 2. Although our mind constructs our sensory world of vision and sound on this level, the meaning of those sensory inputs aren't applied until later levels, specifically levels 4 and 5. Note: this is the domain of neuroscience; the constructs here are correlated with certain, definable areas of the brain, allowing for measurement-based, quantitative data collection. When people claim that autonomy doesn't exist, what their claim really is, is that because layers 4 through 6 are informed by layers 1 through 3, then our 'conscious' mind is simply another mechanism working inside the chosen domain of layers 1 through 3. Therefore, our minds are slaves to layers 1 through 3, and conscious decision making is really unconscious. I agree with some of this, but I reject its frame and conclusion which we will examine below.

Layer 4 is the first layer of abstraction. I will return to this after layers 5 and 6.

Layer 5 is where our higher-order schemata rest. Anytime you utter, read, or think of a word, you are actually taking a physical stimuli from levels 1 through 3 and connecting it to an abstraction. This is both the semantics (meanings) as well as the syntax (pattern-recognition) of language. Your mind constructs these subconsciously, and the connection is so tight that written language leaves the material altogether, rather in perception it becomes the conjured connection itself. For this I cite Piaget. It goes deeper too. When you look at a pencil, you do not see a pencil, you see the schema of what a pencil can do for you as a tool. Here I cite Vervaeake. Note: layer 5 is still a layer of the subconscious, although it is the highest-order subconscious. This is the realm of nonhuman primates and the realm of CBT. When a word is 'on-the-tip-of-your-tongue', there is a malfunction of layer 5. When an idea 'pops into your head' from nowhere, layer 5 collects information from layers 1 through 4, organizes it and analyzes it, and then presents it to layer 6.

What is layer 6? Given the colloqual English definition, layer 6 is you. Layer 6 is the conscious mind. This is where you take schemata and then apply them actively to solve complex problems. Although math concepts are stored and recalled from layer 5, layer 6 is where conscious math is performed. Layer 6 is where you manipulate variables, and when you do math on paper, you're using pen and paper as an extension of both your limited conscious memory and bandwidth. Without paper and written language our capacity to problem solve would be gated by our pitifully small layer 6 memory. Ironically, Socrates, one of the most read philosophers of all time via Plato's writings, lamented the introduction of writing as degenerate. He claimed it allowed laziness into the minds of men. Without writing as a crutch I couldn't articulate these ideas for any of you.

Returning to layer 4, we must examine layer 5. We shall define an 'archetype' as simply a type of schema. We use personalized archetypes all the time. When personified, personal archetypes are stereotypes. As patterns of behavior, they're heuristics. The key point is that archetypes have been made by layer 5 to apply as a universal; of all class X, do, perform, or associate Y (a specific response) irrespective of context.

Layer 4 is where our primitive abstractions lie. Unfortunately, layer 4 cannot be accessed by psychologists as it's too far beneath the conscious mind (and cannot be exactly articulated with standard language), nor can it be accessed through neuroscience (yet) because it's an emergent phenomenon of neurocoordination; it's entirely unknown what areas of the brain are involved with it because like layers 5 and 6, it emerges from a coordination of parts. This coordination is poorly understood. Because of this, Jungian archetypes -- the schemata which live on layer 4 -- are consideded unfalsifiable and therefore unimportant in mainstream science. I will not disagree, they are unfalsifiable, but until neuroscience progresses into the study of emergent behavior via patterns of neurocoordination (which is being worked on, by the way! I cite S. Harris), I posit that Jungian archetypes are indeed relevant because they're the best model we currently have.

Here I will define a Jungian archetype. A Jungian archetype is a universalized universal schema. When a father looks at his newborn child, a father doesn't see the baby. He sees *his* child (layer 5) as well as the amalgam of all children he has ever seen (layer 5 archetype) and the biological, embedded schema of all children humanity and our ancestors has ever seen (how should a father, from an evolutionary standpoint, view his child so as to maximize that child's fitness -- this universalized [across people] universal child [of all children] is a Jungian archetype of the newborn child). It's important here to make a distinction: Jung, a product of his upbringing, considered these archetypes as psuedo-characters. They need not be. Oftentimes, it's the notion of these psuedo-characters that put-off serious intellectuals from his work. But there is an important reason as to why we generally consider Jungian archetypes as psuedo-characters, which I will elaborate upon.

As a budding classicist, part of my work deals with Jungian Archetypes. Examing the ancient myths of the past, when abstracted, it's clear that certain patterns reoccur. This is the case across cultures with no direct communication and therefore -- at best -- only limited copycat storytelling. Where do these patterns come from? I posit from our universalized universal schemata -- from our Jungian Archetypes....


END part 1, I will continue after making coffee.
 
Characters in stories resonate with us because of evolved schemata we call archetypes. This phenomenon is an evolved mechanism that increases an individual's fitness.

Given the complexity of the stratified human mind, autonomy exists on layer 6 within the chosen domain of our subconscious. Additonally, I posit that 'you' are you totality, not just layer 6. My totality has no control over your totality without force, therefore 'you' are still autonomous on *both* of these levels.

Therefore you are autonomous.
 
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Very interesting thesis. I must admit I am still taking some time to process it. I am curious what @Tesla 's thoughts are?
 
Therefore you are autonomous.
If you think as materialist, your brain is nothing more than sodium pumps pumping sodium each other, we are all machines.
 
Because this primitive system is physical, and because it exists virtually unchanged in lower-order organisms, we can -- and have -- studied it extensively
And reached nothing. Reality exists and is immutable, but that doesn't mean people abide to it thoroughly; most of them reject it.

Also, Carl Jung got nearly everything wrong about mental theory and categorizing personalities. Meta-levels of reality are a much more reliable metric on everything, and level 6 is the self-reference level and where lies consciousness, so at least that you got right .
 
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If you think as materialist, your brain is nothing more than sodium pumps pumping sodium each other, we are all machines.
Which is why materialism is a vile philosophy and no materialist yielded even one delta to humanity except amassing resources until their bodies get rotten, then binding it together with glued wraps like mummies because there is no soul inside.
 
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PART 2.

...As a budding classicist, part of my work deals with Jungian Archetypes. Examing the ancient myths of the past, when abstracted, it's clear that certain patterns reoccur. This is the case across cultures with no direct communication and therefore -- at best -- only limited copycat storytelling. Where do these patterns come from? I posit from our universalized universal schemata -- from our Jungian Archetypes.

Axiom: All of the layers of the above are evolved, and have -- either in the present or as a vestigial structure -- a purpose that increases our individual fitness. They did not arise from alien tinkering nor from psychedelic mushrooms. Although the latter may have influenced our religious personal schemata (layer 5 -- see Muraresku), because of the depth of layer 4, I think it's very unlikely that they had any effect on our Jungian archetypes.

So why is this important? Fiction stories that we adopt come to define our culture. These adopted stories -- star wars, harry potter, shakespeare, the odyssey -- speak collectively to our personal archetypes and our Jungian archetypes.

Stories are rewarded for falling within patterns such as the heroes journey (level 4), or lesser known patterns, such as Greek tragedy (both Antigone and The Fountainhead are Greek tragedies), and are punished for patterns that do not fit within this mold.

However, in regards to level 5, there is a dialogue between culture and story; because level 5 archetypes are derived from experience, collective experiences such as popular stories can influence collective archetypes. This is the mechanism of artistic evolution. Stories that speak to both levels of archetypes, 4 and 5, become popular, while further reinforcing or slightly skewing level 5 archetypes. This is why stories evolve, but the universal schema of 'story' itself never changes, and the patterns observed in older myths such as the epic of Gilgamesh keep popping up in popular fiction. Although I posit that complex emotions such as 'awe' and 'god' and 'satori' are derived from level 4, these patterns are *not* from the hand of god or a higher intelligence. They're merely emergent from our evolved minds.

What evolved purpose would layer 4 serve? Predator/prey recognition on an abstract level; pattern recognition of snakeskin against foliage; the 'enemy' who hunts in the shadows of our nightmares is the amalgam of ALL enemies who stalk the night to kill members of our tribe -- big cats hunt at dawn and dusk -- hyenas hunt nocturnally -- wolves howl under moonlight -- and at both the witching hour and the silence of high noon, Pan-ic (see P. Borgeud, this is an ancient phenomena) can sweep across a village and an encamped army. Panic is a response to the level 4 archetype of enemy/predator when we play the role of prey.

@Israeli_incel One of the projects I'm currently working on for fun is to define the 'shamanic journey' story archetype (I loosely cite Peterson here) from the ground up. Like the hero's journey, this is a level 4 story pattern seen in stories such as The Odyssey, The Call of Cthulu, Heart of Darkness, and The Hobbit. By storyboarding these four stories and then abstracting common patterns, I can define a 'shamanic journey' pattern to use in my own novel. I've thought about this a lot already. Once I'm deeper into it I may write a post about it. It heavily relates to both the psychedelic experience and to religious revelation, although that's all I'll talk about for now.

For my thoughts on autonomy, see the tl;dr. I think it was summed up nicely.
 
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I
And reached nothing. Reality exists and is immutable, but that doesn't mean people abide to it thoroughly; most of them reject it.

Also, Carl Jung got nearly everything wrong about mental theory and categorizing personalities. Meta-levels of reality are a much more reliable metric on everything, and level 6 is the self-reference level and where lies consciousness, so at least that you got right .
I'll read about metalevels later tonight, thank you for the link.
 
Very interesting thesis. I must admit I am still taking some time to process it. I am curious what @Tesla 's thoughts are?
Save your time. Sonic is a Time Lord and they always know when they are wasting time one way or another, but you don't.

OP is very clearly a Slave from his user history alone. The middle-grounding in his responses, the fact he liked 'The Hobbit', the teacher's pet rhetoric style without saying anything meaningful. Can't say which archetype just yet, but the moment you learn someone is Slave, whose values include cirularity and time-wasting, it's over.
 
Save your time. Sonic is a Time Lord and they always know when they are wasting time one way or another, but you don't.

OP is very clearly a Slave from his user history alone. The middle-grounding in his responses, the fact he liked 'The Hobbit', the teacher's pet rhetoric style without saying anything meaningful. Can't say which archetype just yet, but the moment you learn someone is Slave, whose values include cirularity and time-wasting, it's over.

So you talk shit using schizobabble? Ironic.
 
So you talk shit using schizobabble? Ironic.
Sad projection. What defines something as 'schizobabble' or whatever you wanna call is not whether the interlocutor understands or not a message. If you are teaching to a group of mouthbreathing retards a fact like 'apples have seeds' and they say 'nah, I can't see those "seeds" you are talking about, so it's not true', would you take their side?

Instead, technobabble is defined as 'text has correct syntax, but no semantics', which is the case... for your text. Everything you write has the same predigested vomit stench which most users in this forum produce with their comments. Pieces of correct information glued with made-up bullshit to process the food eeeeasier and to make information famiiiiliar, resulting in nothing valuable at all, something meant to waste time, go around and around with no definite conclusion in the end.

That's baseline for Slaves since doing everything in half/hybridizing things is part and parcel of having weakness as a baseline value, 'weakness' being 'inability to act on reality without transaction'. So, let's say, S110 parasitism is a Slave value based on weakness because parasites are unable to produce anything for themselves without transaction.

You are just a middlish level Slave (6 at best, you seem capable of 'original' thought as far as Slaves go) with a degree and lots of collected information at your disposal so you can digest everything in little pieces and feed people. DISGUSTING.
 
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Where do these patterns come from?
They are inductive (and sometimes, but rarely, deductive) generalizations, which are efficiencies in our model-building. You see a set of patterns and you generalize it to a model, but you also create an abstraction of the model-building process itself, which then you can use to build further models for future observed and experienced patterns.

Layer 4 is proto-abstraction. You can observe layer 4 in developing minds when children begin to learn how to create abstractions from concrete experiences. When children keep asking "why?" what they're doing is pure imagination with very little concrete reference points, and so they're unable to effectively build a model for the data they experience and the information they receive that supposedly explains the observed phenomena. Once they grow slightly older, they gain more "life experience," so to speak, and have a larger set of concrete reference points with which they can use for their abstraction and model-building process.

You ever notice how some people seem utterly incapable of entertaining a hypothetical and immediately appeal to the current, concrete reality and thus disregard or not process the hypothetical at all? Their layer 4's didn't mature and develop properly, and so their layers 5 and 6 are not very mature and sophisticated as a result. Practically, they would be hopeless in philosophical discourse, as a point of example.
 
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You are just a middlish level Slave (6 at best, you seem capable of 'original' thought as far as Slaves go) with a degree and lots of collected information at your disposal so you can digest everything in little pieces and feed people. DISGUSTING.

How do I level up and become a tier 7 slave, oh based one? What must I do?
 
Layer 4 is proto-abstraction. You can observe layer 4 in developing minds when children begin to learn how to create abstractions from concrete experiences. When children keep asking "why?" what they're doing is pure imagination with very little concrete reference points, and so they're unable to effectively build a model for the data they experience and the information they receive that supposedly explains the observed phenomena. Once they grow slightly older, they gain more "life experience," so to speak, and have a larger set of concrete reference points with which they can use for their abstraction and model-building process.

Do you think the things children think about during pure imagination are biologically informed, or are they just coincidental, random noise?

My guess is that it's a bit of both. Random noise is needed for the development of higher layers, but if my guess is right, then it also seems reasonable that these biological schemata could be the sources of deeper patterns across stories.
 
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How do I level up and become a tier 7 slave, oh based one? What must I do?
It's impossible to Slaves. Your kind moves to any direction ever through external actions only. That's evolution, another Slave value based on choosing the least weak creature, the one who hid itself in perfect averageness, 'winning' by WO (inaction rather than action).

But then, it's impossible for any Neutral type to even desire self-improvement for themselves. In fact, going from a level 6 to a level 7 Slave is arguably becoming worse because that way you'll be MORE Slave.
 
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It's impossible to Slaves. Your kind moves to any direction ever through external actions only. That's evolution, another Slave value based on choosing the least weak creature, the one who hid itself in perfect averageness, 'winning' by WO (inaction rather than action).

But then, it's impossible to any Neutral type to even desire self-improvement for themselves. And in fact, going from a level 6 to a level 7 Slave is arguably becoming worse because that way you'll be MORE Slave.

What I meant was, given your conception of slaves and free thinkers, is it possible for me to become a free thinker? Or if I am stuck as a slave, is it possible for me to become less of a slave?
 
Do you think the things children think about during pure imagination are biologically informed, or are they just coincidental, random noise?
It's not exactly random noise, but outputs from their mind's early attempts at model-building and pattern recognition. Once that process is refined later in their development, the outputs will be more reliable and the random noise will be the inputs that are differentiated between useful and not useful.

My guess is that it's a bit of both. Random noise is needed for the to development of higher layers, but if my guess is right, then it also seems reasonable that these biological schemata could be the source for deeper patterns across stories.
Yes, random noise (more accurately, any incoming data) is how the developing mind trains itself and learns to build models for the world around it in order make sense of all of the sensory input data constantly bombarding it. This process is continuously iterative, even in old age. Though, it does slow down considerably in the later years, as much data is filtered out. You'll notice how older people generally don't take certain things too seriously or not invest too much energy into certain things. That's because their mental models are sophisticated to the point where they realize that is useless data (effectively random noise), and is not worth expending precious energy into.

I don't think that these are strict biological schemata in place. It's just that these repeating archetypical characters are the result of patterns that the minds throughout the generations have built refined models for. I don't think it's memetic schemata being passed down at the biological level. The information is relayed in historic accounts and apocryphal stories. If it were in fact biological, we wouldn't need to tell the stories, because they would be self-evident from an evolutionary point of view, just it's self-evident to have a fear response upon seeing images such as snakes or animals with their teeth bared. That fear response is one such biological schema that has been passed down without needing to (cognitively) build models or utter a single word.
 
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What I meant was, given your conception of slaves and free thinkers, is it possible for me to become a free thinker? Or if I am stuck as a slave, is it possible for me to become less of a slave?
You are as much as a 'free thinker' as Slaves can be, that is, you know your values to a certain extent and use them as a framework to judge the world (meta-level 6) instead of passively relying on representations (meta-level 5), though that is debatable. But since you are Slave, so are your values; anything produced on those levels and below is permeated by the axioms of weakness, laziness, and paying costs. So you are a weak free thinker, and a lazy one too which is why your 'original' ideas have pre-digested concepts from Jung.

Becoming less of a Slave means not becoming who you are, it's how your brain is set to see the entire existence as. What you're trying to do is hiding, dissociating from those values even though it's obvious you have them. And guess what? Hiding is a Slave value.
 
What I meant was, given your conception of slaves and free thinkers, is it possible for me to become a free thinker? Or if I am stuck as a slave, is it possible for me to become less of a slave?
Don't waste your efforts with @Tesla . He's either a very dedicated troll, or has a broken mind that's been lost to a very sophisticated and successful troll attempt (creator of a fictional psychological model to classify people, but it's all nonsense).
 
I don't think that these are strict biological schemata in place. It's just that these repeating archetypical characters are the result of patterns that the minds throughout the generations have built refined models for. I don't think it's memetic schemata being passed down at the biological level. The information is relayed in historic accounts and apocryphal stories. If it were in fact biological, we wouldn't need to tell the stories, because they would be self-evident from an evolutionary point of view, just it's self-evident to have a fear response upon seeing images such as snakes or animals with their teeth bared. That fear response is one such biological schema that has been passed down without needing to (cognitively) build models or utter a single word.

Because humans posses layers 5 and 6, could it be these schemata are self-evident, but in order to process them and understand them on a higher level, we have to let them 'play out' in stories?

Although a squirrel obviously isn't thinking of a 'hero', it may have some underlying understanding of this schema that's biological. It watches mom store nuts, then it learns how to store nuts. It sees dad fight other squirrels for territory, it learns how to fight. It smells nutritious food, so it prioritizes nutritious food and grows strong enough to fight other squirrels too. A squirrel has to become as a hero has to become in order to produce offspring.

Humans are more complex than squirrels, so at the interplay of layers 3 through 5, it still seems reasonable to me that our subconscious could -- on a biological level -- pick up schema 'characters' and 'heroic/mythological' patterns. Therefore although a baby squirrel may see these schemata as self evident, humans may posses them but require more information points to make them useful.

I don't remember which documentary exactly, I think it's this one, but a team conducted a study on two groups of 8month-olds and 2 year-olds. They were running multiple experiments using puppets to test if pre-language children have a sense of 'right and wrong'. They found a stark sense of not just right and wrong, but justice. The children chose to punish the puppet that hurt the other puppet, and then forgave the offending puppet once the child was satisfied that they'd suffered enough. Like I said, it wasn't just a single type of test, the scenario was repeated over several tests and the results stood. There was a bad guy, a good guy, and forgiveness.

Additionally, although this is anecdotal, when my parents were gone and I was stuck babysitting my brothers between the ages 1 and 3, these little shits understood complex stories and could 'play' with motifs that they couldn't even begin to articulate. Maybe they saw media which informed them of these roles, and I'm just seeing meaning where there is none, but it seemed like it was something more intrinsic.
 
Don't waste your efforts with @Tesla . He's either a very dedicated troll, or has a broken mind that's been lost to a very sophisticated and successful troll attempt (creator of a fictional psychological model to classify people, but it's all nonsense).

idk man it all seems ascended and rational to me
 
idk man it all seems ascended and rational to me
Talking to yourself again, are we? You'll never get out Happy Fun Land this way.
 
So you are a weak free thinker, and a lazy one too which is why your 'original' ideas have pre-digested concepts from Jung.
Sure. That's an actual criticism I will give you.
 
Incel writing a phd thesis on Jungian psychology using intricate vocubulary in a obscure public forum v/S Chad just blissfully existing, Meanwhile foids and simps do the complex thinking for him...JFL :cryfeels::feelsrope:
 
High IQ thread, my friend.

Incel writing a phd thesis on Jungian psychology using intricate vocubulary in a obscure public forum v/S Chad just blissfully existing, Meanwhile foids and simps do the complex thinking for him...JFL :cryfeels::feelsrope:
Indeed. Simpletons don't value knowledge and intellectual discussions. I hate them.
 
idk man it all seems ascended and rational to me
The operative word here. It seems rational, until you spend <5 minutes looking at it and realize that there's no logical consistency, no theory, and no methodology behind any of it. It does have a source, however: the anus of the troll who came up with it. The "model" was left incomplete when the troll got bored with it. Copers like @Tesla are too heavily invested into it, and have probably banked their sanity on it, like he has. Too bad it's all fiction and everyone who bought into it went full-blown schizo.
 
High IQ thread, my friend.


Indeed. Simpletons don't value knowledge and intellectual discussions. I hate them.
Actually collecting knowledge and engaging in intellectual discussion is one of the incel traits.Imagine if we were Chads, we would have just learn things which served our self interest and purpose. :feelsrope:
 
153415641
 
The operative word here. It seems rational, until you spend <5 minutes looking at it and realize that there's no logical consistency, no theory, and no methodology behind any of it. It does have a source, however: the anus of the troll who came up with it. The "model" was left incomplete when the troll got bored with it. Copers like @Tesla are too heavily invested into it, and have probably banked their sanity on it, like he has. Too bad it's all fiction and everyone who bought into it went full-blown schizo.
I was joking bro, have some faith
 
layers me. and animals have consiouss as well.
 
Nice thread OP, I love reading high iq material. Need more of this shit instead of bitchy simpcel threads whining about not being able to get some ugly roastie attention. Post more high iq threads on various subjects. It's good copefuel for me.
Also
What I meant was, given your conception of slaves and free thinkers, is it possible for me to become a free thinker? Or if I am stuck as a slave, is it possible for me to become less of a slave?
>Buying into the "free thinker" meme
:feelsPop:
 

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