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A REGIONAL HEADACHE SINCE THE 1990S
DEAR PRUDENCE
SEPT 30, 20226:00 AM
Photo illustration by Slate. Photo by LightFieldStudios/iStock/Getty Images Plus.
Every Thursday on Twitter @jdesmondharris, Dear Prudence asks readers for their thoughts on a question that has her stumped. She’ll post her final thoughts on the matter on Fridays. Here’s this week’s dilemma and answer:
Dear Prudence,
My brother-in-law “John” and I are good friends. We are the same age (mid-20s), share some similar interests, and live in the same city. A couple of days ago, John complained to me while golfing about his inability to find a girlfriend.
His complaints included comments that remind me of things I’ve heard from “incel communities.”
“Girls only want to go for the guys who are assholes to them because they like being treated that way.”
“If you aren’t a gym rat, girls won’t even look your way.” “Good guys like me can never find girls.”
“I don’t know why a girl who isn’t skinny would think I would want to date her.” (John is a heavier-set guy.) I think one of the biggest problems though, John has zero interest in trying to be the kind of person that someone else would want to date.
John dropped out of school and has no interest in furthering his education. He lived with my wife and me about a year ago while “looking for work” while burning through his savings from a grocery store job he held back when he lived at home.
He lives in apartments that cater to college students, which means he has five freshman roommates. He spends most of his nights watching TV, playing video games, or going to parties with his roommates. I helped get him an entry-level support staff job at my work so he would have some form of income (and get out of my house), and since his rent is so cheap he doesn’t push himself to find better work or increase his skills.
He’s come to a few parties with groups of friends of mine, and every time he just complains none of the girls are “good looking” and then goes back to swiping on Tinder.
Prudie, I’m not sure what to say to him. On the one hand, I don’t want him looking for internet support in communities that are rampant with misogyny and anger.
On the other hand, I want to shake him and tell him that no girl wants to date a guy whose idea of a date is to take her back to play video games with his five freshman roommates, but I worry that will drive him away. Any advice?
—Oh Brother
Dear Brother,
I’ll tell you the truth: I read your letter and thought the situation sounded overwhelming and a little hopeless. So I asked for help. As the Twitter replies came in, many of them suggesting that you confront John about how little he has to offer, or about the fact that he’s being unrealistic about his prospects, something was clarified for me:
You misdiagnosed John’s “biggest problem.” It’s not that he’s not currently desirable enough for the women he’d like to attract.
It’s OK to have roommates, play video games, and be a heavier-set guy! Plenty of people who fit that description are perfectly happy with themselves and their dating lives.
It’s that his view of women is toxic in a way that no amount of working out, buying a nice home, or developing cooler hobbies will fix:
Some readers had good ideas for how to approach these conversations, which mostly involve pushing back in the moment on specific false and hateful statements he makes about women, rather than initiating a larger confrontation.
And I thought it was particularly valuable to hear from @ektastrophe, who could relate to feeling some of the emotions John is feeling, and was lucky enough to have friends and resources to help him think differently:
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A REGIONAL HEADACHE SINCE THE 1990S
DEAR PRUDENCE
Help! My Brother-in-Law Thinks He Knows Why Women Won’t Date Him. He’s So Wrong.
In We’re Prudence, Prudence asks readers for their thoughts on a question that has her stumped. The answer is available only for Slate Plus members.
ADVICE BY JENÉE DESMOND-HARRISSEPT 30, 20226:00 AM
Photo illustration by Slate. Photo by LightFieldStudios/iStock/Getty Images Plus.
Every Thursday on Twitter @jdesmondharris, Dear Prudence asks readers for their thoughts on a question that has her stumped. She’ll post her final thoughts on the matter on Fridays. Here’s this week’s dilemma and answer:
Dear Prudence,
My brother-in-law “John” and I are good friends. We are the same age (mid-20s), share some similar interests, and live in the same city. A couple of days ago, John complained to me while golfing about his inability to find a girlfriend.
His complaints included comments that remind me of things I’ve heard from “incel communities.”
“Girls only want to go for the guys who are assholes to them because they like being treated that way.”
“If you aren’t a gym rat, girls won’t even look your way.” “Good guys like me can never find girls.”
“I don’t know why a girl who isn’t skinny would think I would want to date her.” (John is a heavier-set guy.) I think one of the biggest problems though, John has zero interest in trying to be the kind of person that someone else would want to date.
John dropped out of school and has no interest in furthering his education. He lived with my wife and me about a year ago while “looking for work” while burning through his savings from a grocery store job he held back when he lived at home.
He lives in apartments that cater to college students, which means he has five freshman roommates. He spends most of his nights watching TV, playing video games, or going to parties with his roommates. I helped get him an entry-level support staff job at my work so he would have some form of income (and get out of my house), and since his rent is so cheap he doesn’t push himself to find better work or increase his skills.
He’s come to a few parties with groups of friends of mine, and every time he just complains none of the girls are “good looking” and then goes back to swiping on Tinder.
Prudie, I’m not sure what to say to him. On the one hand, I don’t want him looking for internet support in communities that are rampant with misogyny and anger.
On the other hand, I want to shake him and tell him that no girl wants to date a guy whose idea of a date is to take her back to play video games with his five freshman roommates, but I worry that will drive him away. Any advice?
—Oh Brother
Dear Brother,
I’ll tell you the truth: I read your letter and thought the situation sounded overwhelming and a little hopeless. So I asked for help. As the Twitter replies came in, many of them suggesting that you confront John about how little he has to offer, or about the fact that he’s being unrealistic about his prospects, something was clarified for me:
You misdiagnosed John’s “biggest problem.” It’s not that he’s not currently desirable enough for the women he’d like to attract.
It’s OK to have roommates, play video games, and be a heavier-set guy! Plenty of people who fit that description are perfectly happy with themselves and their dating lives.
It’s that his view of women is toxic in a way that no amount of working out, buying a nice home, or developing cooler hobbies will fix:
The issue here is that he’s being radicalized by misogynistic communities to resent women, and his views will only become more hateful if he doesn’t, at the very least, receive some other input. And that’s where you come in. Instead of trying to convince him that his life is sad and the women he’s attracted to are out of his league, commit to being a regular, friendly source of a non-incel worldview.
Some readers had good ideas for how to approach these conversations, which mostly involve pushing back in the moment on specific false and hateful statements he makes about women, rather than initiating a larger confrontation.
As @Aloe9678 pointed out, It’s especially important that he hears this from another man: “The LW needs to call out every gross statement. They’re connected to each other via a woman, and John is likely as disrespectful to her as he is the rest of the women in the world. Men who claim to be good need to prove that by calling out the men who show they aren’t.”
And I thought it was particularly valuable to hear from @ektastrophe, who could relate to feeling some of the emotions John is feeling, and was lucky enough to have friends and resources to help him think differently:
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I can’t imagine that John is a lot of fun to hang out with when he’s spewing bitterness about women, but I think you’ll find your friendship more manageable if you realize that you don’t need to have a difficult conversation with him about how unimpressive he is. Instead, you can focus on providing a healthier perspective on women, which would still be important, even if he did currently have more going for him.
Classic Prudie
A few years ago, my little brother had an affair. He was eventually found out and, after an unsuccessful reconciliation attempt, filed for a divorce, which my sister-in-law fought tooth and nail. My brother is still involved in a relationship with “the other woman” and they are planning to take the next step. To be honest, I never liked his ex-wife. The “other woman” and I have a lot in common, and had we met in other circumstances, I am certain that we would be friends.
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