Determinism Vs. Free will

[A Good Friend]

Is free will a bunch of bull-hockey?

Are we truly masters of nothing, destined to act on strings of preconditions decided at the outset?



For those unfamiliar with the debate, I encourage you to google the thread title and check out some of the debates online. Notable figures are Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett. It's real fedora lord shit and you will surely never get laid if you entertain these questions.

 

[Battlefield3cel]

Good question. I think it works on different levels. What I mean is, Biologically you are determined to act on certain impulses. And your situation influences what you can and cannot do to an extent eg. What 
Government you live under, what country you are born into, race, born rich or poor, etc

I don't believe in a universal morality though, so ultimately you are 'free' to do whatever you like. So you have free will, but you are limited to the extent of your situation. I will vote free will,because ultimately you could do whatever you like. But say if you were born poor or even a slave your options are pretty slim

 

[KyloRen]

I'm on the fence about this. This has to take into account two things. 1. Classical Mechanics. 2. Quantum Mechanics.

Classical Mechanics:
A particle interacts with it and the rest of the universe via the 4 known Forces Gravitational, Electromagnetic, Strong, Weak. Using Newton's Equations, we can combine all of these four forces and apply it to a particle in order to understand where the particle is going, since it's future action will be determined by its current position/velocity and its previous position/velocity. This can be done (as far as I know) for a particle. The problem occurs when you have a shit ton of particles. There is no computer out there that can process that many data points with the mathematical formulas of Newton's Laws with the Four Forces. Theoretically, in my mind, it's possible but not practically possible.

Quantum Mechanics (QE):
QE throws a wrench into everything classical. If all large (classical) particles are made up of smaller subatomic particles, their behavior is determined by the interactions of these subatomic particles. However, we cannot apply Newton's equations to these because it's impossible to know a subatomic particle position and velocity at the same time (Heinsenburg Uncertainty Principle). This is a problem since in order to predict where a particle is going, we need to know both position and velocity for the present and the past.

Mathematically, in my mind, I can't say that the universe is deterministic since QE is mostly still unknown and its based on wavelengths and probabilities. But, it might be entirely possible if our current knowledge of science changes.

 

[Battlefield3cel]

I'm on the fence about this. This has to take into account two things. 1. Classical Mechanics. 2. Quantum Mechanics.

Classical Mechanics:
A particle interacts with it and the rest of the universe via the 4 known Forces Gravitational, Electromagnetic, Strong, Weak. Using Newton's Equations, we can combine all of these four forces and apply it to a particle in order to understand where the particle is going, since it's future action will be determined by its current position/velocity and its previous position/velocity. This can be done (as far as I know) for a particle. The problem occurs when you have a shit ton of particles. There is no computer out there that can process that many data points with the mathematical formulas of Newton's Laws with the Four Forces. Theoretically, in my mind, it's possible but not practically possible.

Quantum Mechanics (QE):
QE throws a wrench into everything classical. If all large (classical) particles are made up of smaller subatomic particles, their behavior is determined by the interactions of these subatomic particles. However, we cannot apply Newton's equations to these because it's impossible to know a subatomic particle position and velocity at the same time (Heinsenburg Uncertainty Principle). This is a problem since in order to predict where a particle is going, we need to know both position and velocity for the present and the past.

Mathematically, in my mind, I can't say that the universe is deterministic since QE is mostly still unknown and its based on wavelengths and probabilities. But, it might be entirely possible if our current knowledge of science changes.

Very interesting. Is Chaos Theory still considered to be legit?

 

[A Good Friend]

Good question. I think it works on different levels. What I mean is, Biologically you are determined to act on certain impulses. And your situation influences what you can and cannot do to an extent eg. What
Government you live under, what country you are born into, race, born rich or poor, etc
I don't believe in a universal morality though, so ultimately you are 'free' to do whatever you like. So you have free will, but you are limited to the extent of your situation. I will vote free will,because ultimately you could do whatever you like. But say if you were born poor or even a slave your options are pretty slim

But if the impulses that control your behavior are ultimately defined by randomness, or every moment is the hard follow-up to a series of moments whose "trajectory" was determined from the outset, how can we be said to have any control?

Aren't we just sort of falling in the direction the dominoes behind us fell in?

 

[KyloRen]

Very interesting. Is Chaos Theory still considered to be legit?

I think so since it entirely depends on initial conditions.

 

[A Good Friend]

Very interesting. Is Chaos Theory still considered to be legit?

I think so since it entirely depends on initial conditions.

Even if those initial conditions are unknowable, how does that give us, the product of an incalculable number of these conditions, any domain over our actions? Wouldn't we as a system be enjoying a sort of godlike privilege over our own ball of chaotic iterations?

 

[QuantumDummy]

There is no me or you or I. We're all consciousness, the only thing that differentiates us is the experiences we've had that are based on the way we look and sound, which is all out of "your" control. I had that thought while in the shower today. On your question of free will, I don't have a good answer atm.

 

[Battlefield3cel]

But if the impulses that control your behavior are ultimately defined by randomness, or every moment is the hard follow-up to a series of moments whose "trajectory" was determined from the outset, how can we be said to have any control?

Aren't we just sort of falling in the direction the dominoes behind us fell in?

That's why i bring up chaos theory.

 

[KyloRen]

Even if those initial conditions are unknowable, how does that give us, the product of an incalculable number of these conditions, any domain over our actions? Wouldn't we as a system be enjoying a sort of godlike privilege over our own ball of chaotic iterations?

We do have domain. Physically, we can do work (W = Fd) on other masses of particles. The universe will have to put up an opposing Force to stop our actions.

 

[blickpall]

I approach the topic from the physics level. A deterministic world would have to be deterministic in all regards - no entropy. While our current understanding of physics is certainly flawed, we currently hypothesize the indeterminate nature of electrons. As such, if there is indeterminism at the fundamental physical level, then there can be no absolute determinism, so free will is theoretically possible and in my opinion likely.

 

[A Good Friend]

Even if those initial conditions are unknowable, how does that give us, the product of an incalculable number of these conditions, any domain over our actions? Wouldn't we as a system be enjoying a sort of godlike privilege over our own ball of chaotic iterations?

We do have domain. Physically, we can do work (W = Fd) on other masses of particles. The universe will have to put up an opposing Force to stop our actions.

Aren't we just an expression of that same force? I mean, the universe as the arena for all potential actions is the shoe we are stuck on. At what point are we handed the reigns? I don't feel like I shape my actions. If I "decide" to whip my dick out at Wal Mart, wasn't that an event that had it's roots in the forces that formed me and my dick? My brain, being a big wet computer throwing photons about and giving signals, was led from the big bang to that point. I really don't have control over the initial states of those particles, so I certainly have no control over where they end up, right?

I don't have the best understanding, I'm hoping this thread will foster some mental growth.

---

Maybe it'd be better to say those particles don't even possess defined initial states. Still haven't got any control here, though.

 

[KyloRen]

Aren't we just an expression of that same force? I mean, the universe as the arena for all potential actions is the shoe we are stuck on. At what point are we handed the reigns? I don't feel like I shape my actions. If I "decide" to whip my dick out at Wal Mart, wasn't that an event that had it's roots in the forces that formed me and my dick? My brain, being a big wet computer throwing photons about and giving signals, was led from the big bang to that point. I really don't have control over the initial states of those particles, so I certainly have no control over where they end up, right?  

I don't have the best understanding, I'm hoping this thread will foster some mental growth.

---

Maybe it'd be better to say those particles don't even possess defined initial states. Still haven't got any control here, though.

---

I see where you're going. That is where QE comes in and says that the position/velocity of each subatomic particle (therefore influencing the behavior of the larger particle in classical mechanics) is random.

 

[A Good Friend]

I see where you're going. That is where QE comes in and says that the position/velocity of each subatomic particle (therefore influencing the behavior of the larger particle in classical mechanics) is random.

I can't really talk physics because I have a pop-sci understanding. But I can appreciate the fact that with or without randomness, I can't really be said to have control over a thought. A thought just emerges through a series of conditions unfolding over time.

So if uncertainty was bullshit and these particles/forces that fire across my brain have definite positions and velocity, I still can't really "tell them what to do." But uncertainty is probably built-in to nature.... and still I'm left being the spongey meat puppet at the whim of these impulses.

 

[Indari]

free will makes 0 sense

---

I approach the topic from the physics level. A deterministic world would have to be deterministic in all regards - no entropy. While our current understanding of physics is certainly flawed, we currently hypothesize the indeterminate nature of electrons. As such, if there is indeterminism at the fundamental physical level, then there can be no absolute determinism, so free will is theoretically possible and in my opinion likely.

stfu nerd before i shove ur head in the toilet

 

[blickpall]

free will makes 0 sense

---

stfu nerd before i shove ur head in the toilet

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Lol *flex* wya?? Talkin like that is dangerous boy

 

[KyloRen]

I can't really talk physics because I have a pop-sci understanding. But I can appreciate the fact that with or without randomness, I can't really be said to have control over a thought. A thought just emerges through a series of conditions unfolding over time.

So if uncertainty was bullshit and these particles/forces that fire across my brain have definite positions and velocity, I still can't really "tell them what to do." But uncertainty is probably built-in to nature.... and still I'm left being the spongey meat puppet at the whim of these impulses.

Yes. Uncertainty is built in. So, generally, although not deterministic, it's still outside of your control.

 

[A Good Friend]

@Indari bringing the BANTZ!!!!

 

[idkwattodowithlife]

Whenever, I hear "Sam Harris," a part of me just dies.

 

[Deleted member 265]

i am sad that the wheels of determinism rolled me such an oblivious fate as to shitpost on incels.is and be permavirgin with 0 perspective. such cases.

 

[i_a_m_i]

>In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control; even over his own will.

 

[Deleted member 306]

Chad has control

 

[Deleted member 265]

>In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control; even over his own will.

best anime

 

[DarkTyrant]

determinism.
there is no free will,also science says that: cause-effect law.
Everything has a cause and everything that has a cause can be predicted.
Your life has been determined when the universe started,just you don't know your destiny because you don't have the instruments to do so.
As it can be predicted that a rock thrown in the water will sink everything else can be predicted,but in order to do so you need to have very powerful instruments that can evaluate an incredible amount of data.

 

[A Good Friend]

Whenever, I hear "Sam Harris," a part of me just dies.

ikr, it was my intro to the debate though so I always think his Ytube clips make a good primer

 

[theson]

The only reality is the physical world. Free will exists within the boundaries of your capacity to think (a retarded mongoloid has less free will than the average person because his capacity to think is limited). However, everyone's free will is limited by other people. You can't will yourself to be my friend if I don't want that, for example. There are alternative (perhaps inauthentic) ways in which you can manipulate others to accomplish your goals (ie, through bribery), but if you're ugly or lack charisma, you are doomed. "Free will" is not some magical concept like the philosophical sense -- it is action-reaction. You can move any stone with enough force, but if are not capable of exerting such a force then it can be said that your failure is "predetermined".

 

[nausea]

voted no

interesting thread, thanks

 

[Ryo_Hazuki]

Causality disproves free will.

 

[nausea]

Causality disproves free will.

also medicine